D&D General Bringing out the big guns - Low Level PCs with High Level antagonist NPCs? (And/Or high power items)

[GMMichael]

What impact does having these kind of NPCs interacting the PCs at low levels have on the player's enjoyment and the progress of the campaign? Does it give a sense of epicness or does it make the players feel weak and powerless? Or both? What are the risks

I'd say it makes "know your enemy" a bit easier...? I wouldn't expect PCs to feel weak and powerless unless they meet Strahd on the street, realize that messing with him is a bad idea, and then turn around and get thrown in the stocks by the street sweeper because one of them accidentally littered while fleeing Strahd.

Similarly what happens when magic items far out of a players normal reach comes into the mix early on? A staff of Power, Vorpal Blade, or Holy Avenger at level 3 or 4? Does it cause resentment if every PC doesn't have one? Does it make player advancement less fun? Does it cheapen other magic items?

These problems will come up if you treat the HPMI (high power magic item) like a character sheet extension. If you instead treat it like a part of the world, it might not be such a jealousy-causing boon.

"So, guys, Sparky got too close to the vorpal blade last night."
"You mean you didn't give it to the king's treasury?"
"Uh, I thought I'd keep it, and . . . "
"And now your hunting dog is headless. Good call!"

Me and my players absolutely hate it. Done poorly, it very much feels like the game is about the antagonist and how cool they are instead of the PCs.

Sure, but that's the "poorly" situation. If done right, the PCs get to do this:

 

[Retros_x]

It's going to vary greatly based on your table, but...

Me and my players absolutely hate it. Done poorly, it very much feels like the game is about the antagonist and how cool they are instead of the PCs.

Exactly my experience. I had this trope with both villains and allies and it felt almost always terrible.

 

[overgeeked]

Coincidentally, Matt Colville just dropped a video on the topic.

 

[overgeeked]

However what happens when the foe is an intelligent, dynamic and has opposing goals to the PCs?

Nothing needs to change. As always, the PCs are so far beneath the villains that they effectively go unnoticed. If the PCs stupidly decide to attack, the villain can simply leave them on death's door and walk away. Adding humiliation to insult and injury.

What impact does having these kind of NPCs interacting the PCs at low levels have on the player's enjoyment and the progress of the campaign?

In my experience it tends to focus progress. Instead of being a vague "we're getting more powerful...yay" it changes into a long and often far too drawn out revenge plot. For good or ill.

Does it give a sense of epicness or does it make the players feel weak and powerless? Or both? What are the risks

In the moment it definitely makes the PCs feel weak and powerless. In the long term, especially after the PCs defeat the bad guy, it makes them feel epic. This is also part and parcel with why so many people like old-school gaming. The PCs start weak and progress with victory never guaranteed. So when the PCs do succeed they feel a far greater sense of triumph. But, to do that, there needs to be a real chance of failure. A real sense of challenge and overcoming tough obstacles. Not everyone likes that. A lot of people just want an easy win with no challenge or obstacles.

Similarly what happens when magic items far out of a players normal reach comes into the mix early on? A staff of Power, Vorpal Blade, or Holy Avenger at level 3 or 4? Does it cause resentment if every PC doesn't have one? Does it make player advancement less fun? Does it cheapen other magic items?

That's a terrible idea. You've recreated the Avengers problem. Thor on a team with Hawkeye and everyone has to pretend that they're somehow equals. In a game that's designed around monster fighting and power fantasy, it's basically impossible to maintain that lie. Even getting a "normal" magic item a session or two ahead of the rest of the party creates resentment. Handing out an epic artifact at level 3-4 to only one PC while the rest of the group just gets nothing even comparable for...a dozen levels...if ever...that's going to cause far more problems than it's worth and likely lead to players quitting the game.

 

[TheSword]

That's a terrible idea. You've recreated the Avengers problem. Thor on a team with Hawkeye and everyone has to pretend that they're somehow equals. In a game that's designed around monster fighting and power fantasy, it's basically impossible to maintain that lie. Even getting a "normal" magic item a session or two ahead of the rest of the party creates resentment. Handing out an epic artifact at level 3-4 to only one PC while the rest of the group just gets nothing even comparable for...a dozen levels...if ever...that's going to cause far more problems than it's worth and likely lead to players quitting the game.

That would be my concern. Just interested if someone had made the One Ring, Callendor or the hand of Vecna work in their game in a satisfying way that didn’t cause animosity.

 

[el-remmen]

One of the current games I'm running the paladin in the group has an intelligent magical scimitar that is essentially a relic of his faith and has the consciousness of an angel tied to it.

The way I get around the power of it, is both by providing stories of what heroes of the past who have had the sword had accomplished with it, but also making clear that the sword is looking for a powerful wielder who can be a sufficient conduit for that power. So basically, as the character goes up in level more powers are revealed - thus it remains a "powerful item" but its power is relegated by its user and their relationship. Furthermore, as the campaign progresses, the wielder has to worry that the sword may try to take him over or find a different wielder.

There is no resentment in the group because that is just one element of a plot that has a lot of different thing for all the characters to engage with and because not everyone wants to deal with the potential downfalls and attention.

 

[GuyBoy]

I don’t mind the BBEG being known to low level PCs by both name and reputation, but I try to avoid any direct contact until they’re close enough to tackle directly.
Similarly, with magic items I tend to go with heirloom weapons that grow stronger as the campaign grows: in my current Scarlet Citadel game the paladin and the rogue, both currently level 5, have respectively acquired the sword and dagger of heroes who defeated the evil of the dungeon over a century ago, but died doing so, and whose weapons have resurfaced just as evil has arisen again. Both weapons will grow in power as milestones take place.
Ironically, the OP of this thread is in possession of the dagger!

 

[aco175]

I guess I’m referring to antagonist NPCs more so than other heroes where I wouldn’t really expect there to be a big conflict.

If you’re dealing with BBEG then the name recognition I think is probably quite useful no? After all PCs are more likely to start throwing insults against unnamed dark wizard as opposed to Manshoon, founder of the Zhentarim and a legendarily powerful Archmage. Assuming the players know the setting.

Unfortunately my group would not likely know any of the big bads unless it is Vecna or Orcus level stuff. I am the only one in my group that has followed most of this. I suppose Artemis Entrini might spark memories of 30 year old books. They would know he is a big bad guy and then I might be wanting to save him with plot armor and force him to live until the climax. I do not think I would feel like that if it was just Artemis' cousin or bodyguard.

 

[GuyBoy]

I never have named NPCs show up.
"Hi, I'm Drizzt. Maybe you guys can go grab me a grape soda since I do not have the time. Me and Wulfgar are going to be doing this super cool thing that you will never hear about, but trust me- you don't. Super-size please- we are going to be tired after, thanks."

Not named NPCs can be of any level until they need to be something else. The low-level party meets a powerful mage who needs a grape soda might only be 5th or 7th level. The PCs do not need to know unless they fight him or plot needs him to be something else later when he offers to enchant a weapon for the party and needs to cast a 6th level spell.

I never seem to have 20th level NPCs around. Not even bad guys since my campaigns never get above 15th level.

I played in a FR game once where the DM had Drizzt show up frequently to “rescue” us. Absolutely hated the game and it put me off FR to a significant extent.

 

[TheSword]

I played in a FR game once where the DM had Drizzt show up frequently to “rescue” us. Absolutely hated the game and it put me off FR to a significant extent.

Off topic but I seem to remember a session @GuyBoy about 25 years ago or so (maybe my first ever game where you DM’d). Where you opened the adventure with us finding Elminster Bloodeagled and the red wizards of Thay obliterated. Very cool adventure.