Broken and balanced

kirinke

First Post
Everyone talks about how broken and how balanced certain rules or monsters are. In reality, the DM just has to adjust it to his or her own particular game.

Example:
High powered uber characters? easy counter: high-powered uber monsters.
A spell that is too powerful for a particular game? ban it until they level appropriately.

In essence, the game is as balanced as the DM makes it.
 

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that's true in general, but often when someone says that a monster is broken, it is because they feel that the CR given to the monster isn't accurate. The DM is surely able to edit the monsters CR or the monster itself to fit the given CR, but that takes work and it is debatable whether it's even necessary. Hence the multitude of threads about a given tweak.
 

Oh my. The Rifts arguement. I'm surprised that it's still as popular as it is, given the fallacies inherent to it.

First, The DM (y'know, that really nice person who spends all that time and effort creating a world and adventures for you) is only human. I know this seems to shock many "a good DM can overcome anything" people, but the DM only has so many hours in a day, so time spent poring over the latest new release and pondering what should be included is gaming time not spent... well, making the game better. Add to that everything that looks hunky-dory on the surface but breaks the game in practice, and you're expecting an awful lot from someone who's already bending over backwards for your fun.

Second, widely divergant power levels actually inhibit options. If I'm to ban everything more powerful than X, and everyone who plays something weaker than X is punished, then well, everything that's not X is effectively cut from my game. So while the occasional mistake can be tossed out easily, if a book has vastly varying power levels for random things throughout it, that translates to a very small band of stuff that's actually playable. And since they're unlikely to repeat an archetype at different power levels, that means the odds of everyone getting to play what they actually want to is rather slim indeed.

And finally, as hinted at above, the less focused on balance the original authors are, the more likely a mistake is to slip into my game and overly reward one player. And I don't think I need to say what happens when one player has inordinate power, say, and spotlight focus in the game.
 

kirinke said:
In essence, the game is as balanced as the DM makes it.

Well, yes. But note that part of the point of having published rules is that they shouldn't need a whole lot of tweaking. Some tweaking to match your own tastes and party, sure. But if I have to constantly review and rewrite loads of stuff, I fail to see why I should buy the product, as it isn't saving me much time or labor.

Also, things aren't always so simple...

"Balance" to my mind isn't about power in an absolute sense. It is about the relative power between the PCs. All PC should, in the long term, have equal chance to be useful and effective in the group. If all PCs are equally uber-powerful, there is balance.

What happens when only one of the PCs is uber-powerful? Imbalance. Now, you can't just throw bigger monsters - what is a challenge for one PC will kill the others outright. But if you make encounters based on the less effective party members, and then the powerful one is the only one that ever really shines. That's not really fun.
 
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kirinke said:
In essence, the game is as balanced as the DM makes it.
And there's the problem right there, actually.

As DM, I shouldn't have to. What do you think I'm paying the writers for? If I wanted to go back and have to spend my valuable time to re-balance everything, I'd just build an entire RPG from scratch that perfectly suits the needs of my players and myself.

Oh wait - I have a career and a life. Well, that throws a wrench into that plan.
 

ok... lemme rephrase.
the game is as balanced as the dm and players allow it. player's have to be reasonable with their character generation and tweak it to suit the dm's game. That takes patience, understanding and a lot of good humor. :D I should know. heh. i'm still new at 3.5/3.0 rules and still get majorly confused at times. It is said by the game-makers themselves, the game can be played without the core books or dice or anything. (I personally don't know about that) ;)



But in the end, we all have 2 work together to have a good time. :cool:
 

In many ways balance can vary wildly from campaign to campaign. What may be overpowered to one group may be spot on or even underpowered to another group. That said, true balance is a pipe dream. I'm not saying that balance should be left up to the DM. A DM's job is hard enough without having to try and balance every race/class/monster/etc.

For instance, Level Adjustments are hotly discussed. One person thinks this race should have a higher LA, while another thinks the LA on the same race is too much. In my D20 Modern campaign, the lethality of the system as well as the social ramifcations of playing certain races leads me to drop LA's altogether for some races, but the players still have to deal with racial hit dice.

The attempt at balance in 3.0/3.5 is very commendable. Overall I think that WotC has done a pretty good job. (Many 3rd party publishers need to learn to do as well as WotC has done in the balance department.) This is an area in which you can only hope to hit the middle ground since many, I dare say most, players will find any one thing in the game unbalanced one way or the other. The key for me is to simply check out any new thing that I want to add to the campaign and tweak if necesarry.

Kane
 


kirinke said:
ok... lemme rephrase.
the game is as balanced as the dm and players allow it. player's have to be reasonable with their character generation and tweak it to suit the dm's game. That takes patience, understanding and a lot of good humor. :D I should know. heh. i'm still new at 3.5/3.0 rules and still get majorly confused at times. It is said by the game-makers themselves, the game can be played without the core books or dice or anything. (I personally don't know about that) ;)

But in the end, we all have 2 work together to have a good time. :cool:

Frankly - why pay for the game if it doesn't give you what you need.

If you play rifts (as an example), practically every session, one of your players will spend his time holding back, one of your players will do his utmost and still die horribly to a stray shot, and one of your characters will do his utmost, not die, but totally and utterly not accomplish anything.

In short all of them have been 'punished' for their character selection.

In a balanced game, they all get to play, they all get to achieve, and none of them have the feeling that they can't use these nifty powers they have for fear of breaking the game.

OR

The DM spends all his time making sure that the monsters never target the weak guys, or even accidentally hit them, and never have a sensible plan.

If you DON'T have a balanced game, then frankly why are you using a rule system? You may as well just chuck the whole thing and write a cooperative story.
 

Oh, balance....

[First of all, let me note that balance is a personal pet peeve of mine, and I'm generally ranting. I'm not targeting any specific person here with this rant.]

There's two kinds of balance.

The first kind is the balance between a party and the challenge the DM presents them with. If the game system provides the DM tools to be able to provide the right level of challenge to the party, a challenge that is difficult but achievable and neither a TPK or a cakewalk, then that's a good kind of balance. A game system that doesn't provide such tools, or provides tools that don't work very well, at the very least does make more work for the DM and could even be considered to be "broken". The word "broken" is overused quite a lot, though, in my opinion.

Then there's the second kind of balance, the intra-party kind, the balance of PC against PC. That kind of "balance" annoys the $#!! out of me, because frankly it has nothing to do with the game system. It's all about the kind of players you have. A player doesn't hog the spotlight because his character is more powerful, he hogs the spotlight because that's the kind of player he is. Building a powerful character is just one means of doing this, but it's the means the player uses to hog the spotlight, not the cause of it. With a lesser-powered character or in a different system with less mechanics, the same player would most likely use different means - e.g. excessively histrionic theatrics - to achieve the same end of hoging the attention. This kind of player has a need - perhaps compulsively, perhaps even pathologically - to be the center of attention, so the cause of this is psychological and has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game system. This kind of player, in the words of grade school report cards, "does not play well with others."

Differing levels of power within a group does not automatically result in spotlight hogging, if the players are mature enough to handle it. The campaign I play in has characters of widely varying power levels, because it's a long-running campaign that has progressed to the second generation of PC's. Last year, one of my first-generation characters, a Wiz20/Clr10, went out on a mission with a number of the second-generation PC's that averaged about 5th level or so. My 1st-genner was personally interested in the 2nd-genners; some were her children, and some were such close friends of the family that she helped raise them and were the next thing to stepchildren to her. It was a close-knit family group. I did not hog the spotlight with the character; she let the kids take the lead to get the mission done and concentrated mainly on healing them and keeping them alive. At the climax of the mission, the DM provided my 1st-genner with an evil leader that was quite a challenge and let the 2nd-genners take on the minions. As it turned out, my 1st-genner was the only one that got seriously hurt. But all the characters had their roles to play and no one hogged the spotlight. That's what happens, despite any difference in relative power levels, when you have mature players who work well as a team. Now, the next adventure we're looking forward to will have this same 1st-genner as well as some others. Two of the others are about 40th-character level, while three others are at about 16th. I fully expect it to be a good adventure despite this disparity in levels.

There's another kind of player personality disorder that invokes intra-party "balance", and this one is even more annoying to me - the one who does it out of some philosophical principle of egalitarianism he brings to the table. This kind of player has some misguided and overzealous adherence to egalitarianism as a principle in that every PC has to be as nearly equal in power to all the others, and this player obsesses about what other players' characters have in comaprison to his - e.g. "He's got a +3 sword and I've only got a +1!" or "his character can kick more butt than mine!". Again, such envy and jealousy on the part of the player is an issue with the player, not the game system. Perhaps it's just a meta-game means of hogging the spotlight, or perhaps they are bringing their real-life philosophies or politics to the table (but I won't explore the latter here), but in any case envy and jealousy is just as ugly at the gaming table as it is in any other social setting and when I see it I get really annoyed at the whiny player.

And as far as classes being supposedly unbalanced... well, who cares? I don't pick a class to play based on its relative power level. If I play a ranger, it's not because I think it is more powerful than another class or at least not less powerful, it's simply that I want to play a ranger. If I want to play a ranger, if the current character concept that holds my interest is that of a ranger, then I'm going to play a ranger regardless of whether the ranger class is more, equally, or less poweful than some other class.

If there's an issue of PC vs. PC balance at your gaming table, it doesn't mean the game system is broken or necessarily unbalanced, it just means you might need new players who don't whine so much and play well with others as a team.
 

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