Broken things errata'ed, July 2009

[Caliban]

FWIW, the problem now with BRV is...you'll not often get to use the +1(or +2) damage to your attacks.

I don't think it's that big of an issue, fighters have access to two utilities that give them temp hps as a minor action (Untoppable lvl 2, Daring Shout lvl 6 - and also marks all adjacent enemies). There is probably more at higher levels, I haven't checked.


Also, there are several other classes that can grant you temp hit points through various means.

 

[Nail]

Except that you now get them on a MISS with invigoration powers. Further encouraging a DRV fighter to invest in those if he wants to get the most mileage out of his build.

Okay, let's run with that.

My BRV fighter opens up combat with his invigorating powers. That way he'll get the THPs even if he misses! Given a 18 Con, that's 8 THP on a hit, 4 THPs on a miss (neglecting feats).

What are the chances that by next round, while he's in the thick of it and has a low AC, that he will still have any THPs? If he's got no THPs, he's not getting that bonus to damage....and thus shouldn't really be in chain (weilding a hammer).

The lure to stay in chain is *only* the extra damage. That's it. ...and now that lure is mostly gone, methinks.

 

[Nymrohd]

Yeah what the change did was make a lot of powers valuable. BRV builds will really need to retool completely, since invigorating powers are by far the biggest thing. Invigorating exploit just became a choice feat for epic.

 

[Nail]

I don't think it's that big of an issue, fighters have access to two utilities that give them temp hps as a minor action (Untoppable lvl 2, Daring Shout lvl 6 - and also marks all adjacent enemies). There is probably more at higher levels, I haven't checked.

Also, there are several other classes that can grant you temp hit points through various means.

Maybe.

But are you going to be doling out the THPs to the BRV fighter every round, right before his turn?

 

[keterys]

FWIW, the problem now with BRV is...you'll not often get to use the +1(or +2) damage to your attacks.

You get it if your enemies aren't concentrating fire sufficiently on you, or if you use invigorating attacks and hit. Ie, it's actually functioning in a defender worthy way (encouraging they fight you) rather than the way it used to discourage enemies from fighting you.

Now, you first need to hit to get the THPs.....and by the time your turn comes around again, it's likely (see above) that you'll have been hit, and your THPs are gone. Thus no +1(or +2) damage.

An invigorating power delivers almost double temp hp on a hit, and normal on a miss, and you have a decent AC - it's not that difficult to get the bonus. And if you don't get the bonus, then your enemies are wasting their damage against temp hp instead of your allies. Win/win.

Add to that the fact that you must *hit* to get THPs, thus using a low proficiency weapon (re: hammer) is stupid.

+1 hit vs. +1+#W damage effectively. It's not stupid, it's just an actual choice. If you use brash strike, more like +1 hit vs. +6 damage.

So before, hammer and chain was the way to go. Now? Plate and longsword. Forget the damage bonus: you'll rarely get it.

You're exaggerating greatly, if your premise involves a +1 difference of hit making all your attacks miss.

At any rate - now there's a real choice between the various talents, which can't help but be a good thing. There will be growing pains for those who have to adjust their characters, but it's healthier for the game overall.

 

[keterys]

What are the chances that by next round, while he's in the thick of it and has a low AC, that he will still have any THPs? If he's got no THPs, he's not getting that bonus to damage....and thus shouldn't really be in chain (weilding a hammer).

'Low AC' is defined as 1 worse than usual, too, eh? Chain to Scale isn't a big difference, and plate has its own downsides.

 

[amysrevenge]

it's actually functioning in a defender worthy way (encouraging they fight you) rather than the way it used to discourage enemies from fighting you.

That's what I'm seeing too - it returns the BRV fighter to being a defender, rather than an island.

 

[Garthanos]

Instead it's surging with energy due to the rage of battle or your body pumping up in response to the thrill of combat?

Always had that flavor.... thats what crushing surge and company always gave me... YAWN...no new flavor here boys in fact yank!!! stumble stumble.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Maybe.

But are you going to be doling out the THPs to the BRV fighter every round, right before his turn?

Probably not, but that's not a terrible thing. Do you want to know why?

Because fighters are defenders, not strikers.

Even without using hammers and chainmail, a BRV fighter compares very favourably (if not being outright more effective than) a weapon talent fighter.

All in all, I like the changes. I think they move in the right direction, and help with things.

I think we'll find that rain of blows is still one of the more potent powers in the fighter arsenal, primarily because when you use it, you get triple static bonuses, of which strength may only be a small portion.

I personally think that BRV fighters are still slightly better than all the other defenders. At least they're not totally invincible and top-notch strikers at the same time, and they don't force the DM to use whacky tactics every round like ignoring the BRV fighter with melee and only attacking him from range, or varying the order in which foes attack him.

The dual strike change is brilliant. Whomever decided on that one needs to be congratulated, because they totally nailed it. It's gone from being a power who's sole purpose was to take over the striker role, and is now a very effective defender-style power.

RROT is still among the more powerful of the divine channeling feats, but it's not crazy insane like it used to be.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

These updates are necessary IMO

WoTC was too quick to add multi-attack / multi-stack / multi-action powers.
I believe these imbalances happened because the combat system has too few variables to "enhance". All powers can't simply "add +1 damage" or "+2 saving throws", so designers added this splat which made fighters top-tier strikers AND top-tier defenders.

Overall, great errata.