Brute pets for mages: does it work?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I made an error the last time I tried this.

So I get annoyed when dumb brute monsters with reasonable stats get butchered by my PCs. (I'm not talking about colossal scorpions, here - they are CR 16-17, according to my testing ).

So I tried an encounter with a naga (sorcerer), allied with a destrachan, elder xorn and digester.

The destrachan was a wimp, and played virtually no role in the battle.

The naga cast Haste, then Fireball, Fireball, Fireball. Even with readied actions, the Haste let her cast one Fireball per round.

The elder xorn is not CR 8! It killed a 123 hit point character, who had DR 8/-, in only two rounds. Of course, it did get surprise after the combat started (and the PC, taking cover from Fireballs behind a pillar, didn't realize the elder xorn was in the stone wall only 5 feet away from him).

The combination of Fireballs and Digester slaughtered the cleric and fighter.

Anyway, a closer look at EL rules showed that I had made an error, virtually ensuring a TPK anyway. (The only other time I made such an EL error involved drow that were wimpy for some reason - the total EL was two points below the party level. Oops.)

So, before I try this again, I want to know from other DMs if this kind of thing has worked out for them.

 

[The Souljourner]

The xorn does seem a bit powerful for CR 8, but keep in mind it doesn't really have any good offensive abilities besides its attacks. I don't know how it killed a character with 123 hitpoints and DR 8/- in two rounds... that should be impossible unless it got a ton of critical hits.

The bite does 25 damage on average... this is reduced to 17 with the DR. Two of those is 34 damage. The claws on average do no damage whatsover.. let's say it rolls max once in the six claw attacks and gets one point of damage through... that's 35 damage. Now exactly how did this thing do 123 damage in two rounds? On average it should do 35, maximum would be 68 assuming no critcals. Even power attacking 5 only brings that to 63 damage on average, and this is assuming every single attack hits.

The Naga should have been taken out almost immediately. They have really crappy AC and very few hitpoints.

What level were these PCs? This encounter sounds like it's about EL 12.

So, what's the question, are you asking if Mage + flunkies is a combination that has worked? Yeah, it works, more or less. Problem is, it's fairly difficult to effectively protect the mage from getting slaughtered in the first couple of rounds... that's why Im surprised yours was able to get off as many spells as it did. My group would have thrown everything they had at it after the first spell it cast.

-The Souljourner

 

[the Jester]

Sounds to me like it worked pretty well in the set-up you had going.

As for the xorn, I suspect that fireball damage had something to do with it as well?

 

[Nail]

The elder xorn is not CR 8! It killed a 123 hit point character, who had DR 8/-, in only two rounds. Of course, it did get surprise after the combat started (and the PC, taking cover from Fireballs behind a pillar, didn't realize the elder xorn was in the stone wall only 5 feet away from him).

I must have a faulty understanding of surprise....

After combat has started (say, round 2), a new combatant can arrive and "surprise" (flat footed) the original combatants? I didn't think surprise (and flat-footed-ness) lasted past round 1!!??

Moreover, why did the fighter "take cover"? You allow pillars to give cover bonuses to Reflex saves from an area affect spell? I though that was only applicable behind wide walls or arrow slits, etc. Again, perhaps I misunderstand the situation....or the rules. <shrug>

Enlighten me.

 

[the Jester]

Re: Re: Brute pets for mages: does it work?

I must have a faulty understanding of surprise....

After combat has started (say, round 2), a new combatant can arrive and "surprise" (flat footed) the original combatants? I didn't think surprise (and flat-footed-ness) lasted past round 1!!??

Moreover, why did the fighter "take cover"? You allow pillars to give cover bonuses to Reflex saves from an area affect spell? I though that was only applicable behind wide walls or arrow slits, etc. Again, perhaps I misunderstand the situation....or the rules. <shrug>

Enlighten me.

I believe you're right about surprise, though in some circumstances I could see more surprise in the middle of things; however, perhaps this was a poorly phrased "the xorn was an unseed opponent" kind of thing?

As to cover and reflex saves, I believe cover gives a bonus to reflex saves as long as they aren't spreads (fireball's a burst, right?)

 

[The Souljourner]

Fireballs and other burst type spells do not go around intervening objects... thus if you are standing behind a pillar, you don't get hit. it kind of makes sense - if there's a wall between you and the fireball, you don't get hit, right? Well, think of a pillar as a wall just big enough to stand behind.

As for surprise, you're right, you can't technically be surprised or flatfooted, however if the Xorn is attacking from a position where the character can't see him, the character will be flat footed with respect to the Xorn.

-The Souljourner

 

[AuraSeer]

Something about this doesn't feel right. The Xorn would need a number of very lucky die rolls to do so much damage so quickly.

An elder Xorn has one Bite for 4d8+7 damage, and three Claws for 1d6+3.

It also has the Power Attack feat. Since its primary attack is at +21 to hit, if we remove its +7 Strength bonus and the -1 for Large size, we find that it has a BAB of +15. So it could conceivably Power Attack for 15 points.

If the monster does Power Attack to the max, the bite can do up to 44 damage, and each claw up to 24. The target's DR reduces these to 36 and 16, respectively. Assuming the monster does take the highest penalty, manages to still hit with all four attacks, and defies the odds by rolling max damage on all its dice, the character will take (36+16+16+16)=84 damage per round.

In reality, if the xorn takes that much Power Attack, most of its strikes will miss. When it does hit, it's not likely to roll maximum damage. It theoretically could kill that 123-hp character in two rounds, but that won't be the normal course of events.

 

[AEtherfyre]

Fireballs and other burst type spells do not go around intervening objects... thus if you are standing behind a pillar, you don't get hit.

You're right about bursts - but Fireball is a spread. It does go around pillars; the most you can get from it if there is an open path to you (and not just a straight line, either) that's shorter than the fireball's radius is half cover, not full.

 

[Nail]

As for surprise, you're right, you can't technically be surprised or flatfooted, however if the Xorn is attacking from a position where the character can't see him, the character will be flat footed with respect to the Xorn.

So Xorn is...invisible? Huh? I'm not sure I understand/buy this.

If you can't see an enemy, you are flat-footed wrt that enemy? Hmm...where's that SRD......


Re: Fireball as a burst

Got it.

<EDIT> Never mind, see below.

 

[Caliban]

Never mind, I don't get it. Is fireball a burst or spread, and where does it say what the difference is?

Fireball is a Spread. A Spread is similar to a Burst, except that it will spread around corners and through holes out to the limit of it's area. You would still get a bonus on your Reflex save if you have sufficient cover though.