Brute pets for mages: does it work?

[Nail]

You're right about bursts - but Fireball is a spread. It does go around pillars; the most you can get from it if there is an open path to you (and not just a straight line, either) that's shorter than the fireball's radius is half cover, not full.

From SRD (gotta love it on-line, eh?)

Fireball

Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

And also:

Burst: As with an effect, the character selects the spell's point of origin. The spell bursts out from this point, affecting whatever it catches in its area. A burst spell has a radius that indicates how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

Spread: Some spells spread out like a burst but can turn corners. the character selects the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes.

So, bottom line is that a pillar provides no cover against a fireball, as the fire simply goes around the pillar. 'Natch!

 

[Nail]

Fireball is a Spread. A Spread is similar to a Burst, except that it will spread around corners and through holes out to the limit of it's area. You would still get a bonus on your Reflex save if you have sufficient cover though.

If it goes around corners with impunity, why a reflex save bonus (which with 100% cover gives you a "Cover Reflex Save Bonus" of "-", implying that against things that cover protect against, you don't need to make a Ref. save if you're behind 100% cover.)?

 

[The Souljourner]

Does someone have their PHB handy? I could have sworn fireball was a burst. Like it says, a spread is more like the way a fog or cloud would move. I distinctly remember seeing pictures in the DMG about fireball being blocked by intervening barriers. I'll have to look it up when I get home.

-The Souljourner

 

[Berk]

fireball is a spread, and yeah it won't go through barriers like a wall or door unless it does enough damage to actually break through the barrier but hiding behind a pillar gives no cover from a fireball since it just wraps around it, you would have to be inside the pillar to get any cover from a fireball.

 

[The Souljourner]

I guess it's a spread then. Good to know! I mean, it does kinda make sense. A fireball is really just rapidly expanding superheated gasses, they should expand into the space behind a pillar.

Hrm... I have to go with nail here... if it wraps right around, what good is cover? I would assume the cover bonus would only apply to bursts, since you could just dive behind the cover, but that's not what it says, it says anything that affects an area.

Does that mean if there's a guy my size between me and the blast, I get 1/2 cover from the blast? Talk about hiding behind your friends...

-The Souljourner

 

[Nail]

Does someone have their PHB handy? I could have sworn fireball was a burst. Like it says, a spread is more like the way a fog or cloud would move. I distinctly remember seeing pictures in the DMG about fireball being blocked by intervening barriers. I'll have to look it up when I get home.

My problem is my "at home" edition is the first printing, complete with typos.

It seems that you can't get a cover bonus from a spread area of effect. That is, unless you are in a closed room and the fireball "spread" outside it.

 

[Nail]

Does that mean if there's a guy my size between me and the blast, I get 1/2 cover from the blast? Talk about hiding behind your friends...

keep in mind there's that pesky 1st level shield spell to worry about too. If cover was effective against fireballs, then that spell would give you a +3 bonus on th' Reflex save.

Yowch!

 

[Berk]

keep in mind there's that pesky 1st level shield spell to worry about too. If cover was effective against fireballs, then that spell would give you a +7 bonus on th' Reflex save.

good thing a shield spell doesn't actually give you cover =o), just a bonus to ac of +7, they just named it cover so it would stack with other spells like mage armor and such =o)

 

[Nail]

good thing a shield spell doesn't actually give you cover =o), just a bonus to ac of +7, they just named it cover so it would stack with other spells like mage armor and such =o)

I hate to do this Berk, but I'm gonna hafta SRD you:

Shield

Abjuration [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)

Shield creates an invisible, mobile disk of force that hovers in front of the character. It negates magic missile attacks directed at the character. The disk also intercepts attacks, providing three-quarters cover (+7 AC and +3 on Reflex saves against attacks that affect an area). The disk moves out of the way when the character attacks, so it does not provide cover to opponents. The disk protects the character only against magic missiles and attacks from one direction. The character designates half the battlefield as being blocked by the shield. The other half is not. The character can change the defensive direction of the shield (that is, rotate the dividing line) once as a free action on each of the character's turns.

So...Nope, it really is Cover. Really. With a capital "C". Not some kind of flavor text put in that just happens to conincide with official terminology.

<EDIT> But I did mis-quote the save bonus, didn't I? Anyway, the way it jives with what we've been saying about Fireball is this: Cover does not protect against spreads (only bursts?), therefore the +3 Ref bonus confered by shieldis not applied to fireball saves.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

About the xorn - yes, the Fireball contributed.
The PCs also made a number of mistakes. They damaged the naga, but they didn't ready actions. (I lectured them about this, afterwards.) They also should have buffed more. If you're going to pay a ransom, you expect to be stabbed in the back.

The fighter and cleric were too busy getting melted by the digester - for something that only does 8d6 damage it was really spanking them. That and the multiple Fireballs.

Xorn "surprise": it wasn't surprise as such. It was simply hidden in the wall near the pillar, which had some space between it and the wall. The PC stood next to the pillar, trying to get a saving throw bonus. (A smarter move would have been to ready actions). Then the xorn emerged, took a 5 foot step (all it needed) and got a full-round attack.

On the psion PC's initiative, he had to pick between drawing an AoO for fleeing, or drawing one and blasting. He was in trouble either way - the fireball and four hits (one critical) were really hurting him. I think he ran, but the AoO was a crit... whoops.

I got lectured about using a creatures with +21 melee against an AC 23 PC.

(I used ITCK, so this psion wasn't underpowered - except in the power point department.)

That Naga had Haste and Shield - AC wasn't a big deal for her.

Shield has been errata'd, I think it no longer provides a cover bonus.

They were 10th-level: if the EL was 12, then I think their errors were the problem.

Oh yeah, next time, anyone have any ideas on how to keep the "mage" alive.