steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
Fighter, then thief, then druid. 
[Arcane] Magic-user didn't play into the Bard at all in 1e.
[Arcane] Magic-user didn't play into the Bard at all in 1e.
D&D 5E Building a better Bard
- Thread starter Paul Smart
- Start date
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
The other thing that I've thought of the Bard, and vacillate over, in my own homebrew system...
...is making Bards (and Paladins and maybe a couple of other things) their own "Prestige style" class. It kind of harkens back to the 1e original, in that you have to become this and then become that before you are a "Bard" and there's something about that that appeals to me.
It also would allow for the "Fighter/Wizard/Rogue(or Ranger or Druid or whatever)" focused flavors of Bards that it seems everyone wants. For example, if you could not be a bard before, say, level 6. So you get in a solid base of Fighter, Mage, Cleric [of a music deity perhaps?], or whatever.
THEN, through your travels, experience, studies, interest in, whatever the story justification, you find a Bardic mentor or enter into a Bardic College/organization that broadens your horizons...and things take off from there. The magical voice effects, countering charms, comprehending/translating languages, being a diplomat [or historian/archivist or scald/warlordy guy or womanizing/maneating cad or in-demand musician/entertainer or whatever]
In effect Bard IS the subclass...the flavor of bard is based on whatever it was you were before. If you didn't have spellcasting in your pre-bard life, you gain a bit of spell casting ability. If you couldn't use armors or weapons before your bardic life, you get taught how to use them [certain ones, any way].
Maybe only build it out to 10 levels worth of class. So, any time after 6th, you can become a bard...and then that's what you are for the rest of the game...if that takes you to only 16th, so be it. But you're gaining a bag of tricks and abilities nd features that no other class combines in itself.
Another way to go, and relatively easy fix, if you want to keep it an independent class, curb the spellcasting and feel more "Bardy" would be to make/use/allow Inspiration Dice as Sorcery Points. So, you want to use your Bardicky goodness to help yourself or other roll, fine. Or you can use an Inspiration Dice (maybe make it two or three at higher levels) to be your "sorcery points" for the day and with those is how you use magic/cast spells. Keep the progression -of what is possible for them to cast within a day- just as it is. Use the Bardic spell list (or not). Spend the Inspiration Die as one would spend Sorcery Points to fuel your magic.
Just a thought.
...is making Bards (and Paladins and maybe a couple of other things) their own "Prestige style" class. It kind of harkens back to the 1e original, in that you have to become this and then become that before you are a "Bard" and there's something about that that appeals to me.
It also would allow for the "Fighter/Wizard/Rogue(or Ranger or Druid or whatever)" focused flavors of Bards that it seems everyone wants. For example, if you could not be a bard before, say, level 6. So you get in a solid base of Fighter, Mage, Cleric [of a music deity perhaps?], or whatever.
THEN, through your travels, experience, studies, interest in, whatever the story justification, you find a Bardic mentor or enter into a Bardic College/organization that broadens your horizons...and things take off from there. The magical voice effects, countering charms, comprehending/translating languages, being a diplomat [or historian/archivist or scald/warlordy guy or womanizing/maneating cad or in-demand musician/entertainer or whatever]
In effect Bard IS the subclass...the flavor of bard is based on whatever it was you were before. If you didn't have spellcasting in your pre-bard life, you gain a bit of spell casting ability. If you couldn't use armors or weapons before your bardic life, you get taught how to use them [certain ones, any way].
Maybe only build it out to 10 levels worth of class. So, any time after 6th, you can become a bard...and then that's what you are for the rest of the game...if that takes you to only 16th, so be it. But you're gaining a bag of tricks and abilities nd features that no other class combines in itself.
Another way to go, and relatively easy fix, if you want to keep it an independent class, curb the spellcasting and feel more "Bardy" would be to make/use/allow Inspiration Dice as Sorcery Points. So, you want to use your Bardicky goodness to help yourself or other roll, fine. Or you can use an Inspiration Dice (maybe make it two or three at higher levels) to be your "sorcery points" for the day and with those is how you use magic/cast spells. Keep the progression -of what is possible for them to cast within a day- just as it is. Use the Bardic spell list (or not). Spend the Inspiration Die as one would spend Sorcery Points to fuel your magic.
Just a thought.
Tony Vargas
Legend
The Bard has an odd history, it started out as a proto-PrC that required 5-8 levels of fighter and thief, and then got Druid spells. Then it became a second-rate wizard with thief abilities in 2e, then a second-rate sorcerer with buffing abilities and a few more skills in 3e. In 4e it became an 'Arcane Leader,' and was no longer second-rate (not that anyone was second-rate in 4e, well, until Essentials), casting spells from 1st level and getting high level spells at high level. The Skald pulled back some martial ability from the original D&D bard, but fortunately none of the rest of its weirdness.
Ironically, 5e went ahead and 'quietly' kept the 4e Bard. The Lore Bard maps to the PH2 Bard and the Valor Bard to the HotFW Skald. And it works fine, it means the Bard is a full caster not any further behind the traditional Vancian casters than any other full caster (and probably ahead of the Sorcerer in some ways).
The Bard doesn't prep spells, it's known spells stay fixed and defining, though it casts them spontaneously. That's good, it means spell choice defines each bard a little differently. Thing is, the old Vancian standbys, Cleric, Druid (both compete with the Bard as support casters) and Wizard who prep spells and, now in 5e, cast them spontaneously, are strictly much more flexible than the poor Bard (and Sorcerer and Warlock). The Bard doesn't need to be improved, but re-Vancian-ing those three (making them prep into slots instead of a into a list they can then cast spontaneously from), would level the playing field a bit.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
I'd like to see a Bard as maybe a half-caster with better/wider spell selection. Like the 1e fella, maybe allow the Bard to choose from the Druid (or go 2e and choose from the Wizard!) spell list.
I guess the big thing with me is that I feel like the big defining feature of the Bard (Inspiration) is so... unbard-y. I don't feel like the magic is linked at all to performances of any kind. I don't feel like how the bard subclasses only have three features, and the last one so far away. Like, you're trying to cram all variations into two levels (3 and 6). A lot of people wanted to see the bard as a true jack-of-all trades, but its still very limited in what you can do with it.
rgoodbb
Adventurer
I can't really think of a class that is more of a jack-of-all trades than the bard. Any spell you want, skill mastery, support, control, debuff. etc.
I have the opposite thought with bards than you. Rather than limiting, I see playing the bard as a way of opening up more new ideas and flavours rather than less.
Our milage it seems, varies here.
snickersnax
Explorer
Bladesinging should be an elven bardic college not a wizard tradition. I mean come on: proficiency in light armor and a melee weapon, performance, BladeSong, Song of Defense, Song of Victory, multi attack. This just screams BARD.
The only reason they made it a wizard tradition is because for some crazy reason elves get bonus to intelligence instead of charisma.
Every charisma based class has a fey subclass except bard. Paladin = Oath of the Ancients, Sorcerer = Wild Magic, Warlock = Archfey.
According to Dwarves: elves are "as apt to start singing as to pull out a sword." I mean come on, how did elves get saddled with tome-lugging wizardry. IMO elven wizards should be a rarity and elven bards should be common (in elven kingdoms anyway). I say bonus to charisma for elves instead of intelligence
The only reason they made it a wizard tradition is because for some crazy reason elves get bonus to intelligence instead of charisma.
Every charisma based class has a fey subclass except bard. Paladin = Oath of the Ancients, Sorcerer = Wild Magic, Warlock = Archfey.
According to Dwarves: elves are "as apt to start singing as to pull out a sword." I mean come on, how did elves get saddled with tome-lugging wizardry. IMO elven wizards should be a rarity and elven bards should be common (in elven kingdoms anyway). I say bonus to charisma for elves instead of intelligence
Similar Threads
