D&D 5E Building a better Paladin

[Lost Soul]

Comes from comparing it to the fighter instead of to full casters...

If you're considering every edition, you're going to have a hard time explaining how, say, an 8d6 fireball you can cast spontaneously cast until you run out of 3+ level slots is 'nerfed,' compared to a 3d one that you can cast 1/day, if you specifically prepared it.

Obviously, every edition has nerfed some spells, usually the most notorious ones from the previous edition. But, casting also tends to face fewer restrictions with each rev roll, too..




...and, some spells gain in power, too.

Umm, no. The new spell fireball is nerfed. Fireball used to go up to unlimited D6's in 1rst. 20D6 in BECMI, then 10D6 in 2nd & 3rd editions before really annoying people in 4E with originally 3D6+bonus then pumping it to 46+bonus after people complained. It is nerfed in 5E to 8D6. Greater starting point, weaker end point. Big time nerf

Oh and your spellcasting mechanic is a nerf too. You could prepare fireball many more times in previous editions that this one and you could play a sorcerer in 3rd, get this same effect and cast it way more often. Its a big time nerf

 

[Tony Vargas]

Umm, no. The new spell fireball is nerfed. Fireball used to go up to unlimited D6's in 1rst.

When you said 'nerfed in every edition, I thought you meant sequentislly, each ed nerfier than the one before. Sure, none of em have gone back to unlimited levels and unlimited damage, wildly irrelevant as a hypothetical 99th level fireball might be.

My point was that some spells get better from one ed to another, and some buffed, that restrictions have been steadily removed from casting, and that 5e represents a big bounce in caster power after hitting bottom with 4e. In an implementation so astoundingly nerfed that casters were barely superior to non-casters, at all.

 

[Lost Soul]

When you said 'nerfed in every edition, I thought you meant sequentislly, each ed nerfier than the one before. Sure, none of em have gone back to unlimited levels and unlimited damage, wildly irrelevant as a hypothetical 99th level fireball might be.

My point was that some spells get better from one ed to another, and some buffed, that restrictions have been steadily removed from casting, and that 5e represents a big bounce in caster power after hitting bottom with 4e. In an implementation so astoundingly nerfed that casters were barely superior to non-casters, at all.

No, most 5E wizard/sorcerer spells are much worse off than their previous counterparts. The only exceptions really are sleep & color spray . Magic missile is far worse, find traps, charm person, friends, ice-storm, burning hands, Mord's Sword, etc. Along with fewer spells per day and over reliance on cantrips the wizard and sorcerer have been nerfed considerably. I don't see how a reasonable nerf on paladins such as 1 smite per round, call smite when making attack roll, spell wasted on a miss like any other caster is breaking that class. Paladins have it too good Tony and they need to be toned down QUITE A BIT.

Also any cap on damage is a nerf and it is not irrelevant. Most campaigns do not go to 20th level, granted. But many end up between 9th to 14th level. A spell that has degraded from 14D6 to 10D6 to 4D6+bonus to 8D6 is a spell that has been hit with a nerf stick. There is no way around that.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It is nerfed in 5E to 8D6. Greater starting point, weaker end point. Big time nerf

The bigger nerf came on the other side of the table, with monster HP inflating massively between AD&D and 5E. A troll in AD&D averaged 33hp, and could be killed from full by a single 10d6 fireball (or two 5d6 fireballs). In 3E, the troll is up to 63hp, so it will always take at least two 10d6 fireballs. In 5E, the troll is up to 84hp, so it's still alive (on average) after taking three 8d6 fireballs.

Other monsters scale similarly, but trolls are the most relevant to the topic at hand. Even dragons rarely exceeded 100hp, back in the day.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, most 5E wizard/sorcerer spells are much worse off than their previous counterparts.

If, as you seem to be doing, you compare them only to whichever prior counterpart was most wildly overpowered, which is a meaningless comparison when looking at overall full-caster power.

...Along with fewer spells per day

5e casters in general have more spells/day at some levels and fewer at others, compared to the classic game. They also waste fewer, because they cast spontaneously.
Compared to 4e, casters have far more spells, greater versatility with them, and greater power. Calling that a nerf is ridiculous. At the very least, your going to have to pick a specific past ed in which casters were wildly OP, like 3.5, othrrwise, 4e is going to undermine you blanket claims.

. I don't see how a reasonable nerf on paladins such as 1 smite per round, call smite when making attack roll, spell wasted on a miss like any other caster is breaking that class. Paladins have it too good

I don't strongly disagree, though there not alone in that regard...