D&D 5E Building a Hot Rod: What I miss most in D&D Next

[Radiating Gnome]

Um... near as I can tell, there is nothing mechanically that players can tinker with between sessions (or during them, even, really) to "keep their attention."

I'd argue that if you need to keep players focused on the game by allowing them to tinker with mechanics between games, then... there may be a greater problem at work.

Wow. I didn't think there was really a greater problem with my game. Just a little thing I felt I missed.

Let me ask you guys, whose games apparently don't have the problems mine do -- Do your players think about your game between sessions? Is it a good thing if they do? What sort of things are they thinking about? What might we wish they were thinking about instead?

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to make a case for powergaming in Next. I'm just looking for something that will help make the game experience sticky. Something they think about between sessions, which makes them look forward to upcoming sessions, which makes them more creatively engaged in the sessions when we sit down to play, etc.

 

[BriarMonkey]

Too, keep in mind we are still, relatively speaking, at the infancy of the edition. There isn't much there beyond basics.

 

[BriarMonkey]

... What sort of things are they thinking about? ...

Generally, in the games I ran, the players would be figuring out things like what they wanted to do when they leveled up - where to spend skill points, what feat to get, what spells to research, did they want to multi-class, etc.

If they weren't close to leveling, they'd be planning things like what equipment to save up for, what to save up to fabricate, what research was needed for spells, and other elements that needed planning or budgeting. This would also include what adventures/hooks to pursue next, or what to avoid, so as to fulfill either party or personal goals - not to mention the goals and needs of any leiges or others involved.

If we had land holdings involved, then between sessions often also included such planning as where to expand their holdings, what land to prospect next, what hirelings to acquire to move land development ahead, what protections needed to be undertaken, etc. This could even encompass business undertakings.

So yeah, there actually could be a lot going on that was planned for and then gamed during a session.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Wow. I didn't think there was really a greater problem with my game. Just a little thing I felt I missed.

YMMV. That's just my take on it.

Let me ask you guys, whose games apparently don't have the problems mine do -- Do your players think about your game between sessions? Is it a good thing if they do? What sort of things are they thinking about? What might we wish they were thinking about instead?

It depends on the player. Not all players are driven by the same things. In the games I play in, some of them I think about almost constantly through the week, some I put a little bit of thought into throughout the week, while others I sort of dread going into (long story involving the "social contract").

Most of my players are guys with families and day-jobs. I don't expect them to constantly think about the game through the week: instead, I think my game is a success if we sit down and get right into it. If they remember important (or maybe even unimportant!) NPCs, tidbits from earlier sessions, and are actively engaged during the game.

Is it good if they think about the game away from the table? Sure. That means that they're really engaged. But honestly, it's just one measuring stick. I had a player who was working ~80 hours a week and had an active social life... I would not expect him to spend serious time contemplating the game away from the table. But when he showed up to play, he was enthusiastic, and has said I'm the best DM he's played under.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Wow. I didn't think there was really a greater problem with my game. Just a little thing I felt I missed.

Let me ask you guys, whose games apparently don't have the problems mine do -- Do your players think about your game between sessions? Is it a good thing if they do? What sort of things are they thinking about? What might we wish they were thinking about instead?

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to make a case for powergaming in Next. I'm just looking for something that will help make the game experience sticky. Something they think about between sessions, which makes them look forward to upcoming sessions, which makes them more creatively engaged in the sessions when we sit down to play, etc.

Most often, I don't care too deeply if my players don't think about the game between sessions much. But, I will occasionally ask them to come up with a story. Recently I've taken to starting each session by asking, "Tell me something about your character."

The problem, of course, is that they never actually spend time between sessions doing what I've asked. At best, they remember to do it an hour before the start of the game.

But you know, that's okay. What really matters is that they are invested during the session.

All of that said, I did once have an amazing experience during a Shadowrun game. I ran an entire arc where we were sending in character emails to one another between sessions, the content of which became an important part of the following sessions. But, that's the sort of thing you can only do occasionally.

 

[malcolm_n]

Too, keep in mind we are still, relatively speaking, at the infancy of the edition. There isn't much there beyond basics.

I would argue even that we're still in conception. They really just took us out on our 4th or 5th date (playtest). The day will come, though.

Metaphors aside, I know what you're trying to say, Radiating, but like you, wording it is difficult. It's not so much power gaming as it is enjoying your character enough to see what's coming down the line and maybe lining up your choices. Currently, you basically pick everything from your "packet" unless you're going with the choose your feats/skills option; in which case it does open up some of what I believe you're looking for.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Generally, in the games I ran, the players would be figuring out things like what they wanted to do when they leveled up - where to spend skill points, what feat to get, what spells to research, did they want to multi-class, etc.

If they weren't close to leveling, they'd be planning things like what equipment to save up for, what to save up to fabricate, what research was needed for spells, and other elements that needed planning or budgeting. This would also include what adventures/hooks to pursue next, or what to avoid, so as to fulfill either party or personal goals - not to mention the goals and needs of any leiges or others involved.

If we had land holdings involved, then between sessions often also included such planning as where to expand their holdings, what land to prospect next, what hirelings to acquire to move land development ahead, what protections needed to be undertaken, etc. This could even encompass business undertakings.

So yeah, there actually could be a lot going on that was planned for and then gamed during a session.

See, some of this sounds like the sorts of things I've been talking about -- what advance will you take next, what equipment will you buy, etc. But so far in next there are very few choices that you make as you level up (unless you're customizing your specialization, the only choices you make are spells if you're a spellcaster or one of a couple of options every few levels -- everything else is scripted). You can shop for mundane equipment, but the magic item rules don't allow for much buying or crafting of magic items -- so most of the sorts of things your players have been used to doing between sessions are not in Next (yet).

The story options -- what hooks to follow up, what to avoid, personal goals, etc -- I love that -- I'm always looking for ways to give the players those sorts of options and give them enough information to make the choices they make about what they do interesting and complicated. As a DM, I'd be happiest if they were focusing on those things, but I don't know if a game system can do that so much as that's the creation of a specific DM and how he runs his game. Adventure paths, for exan

-rg

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Most often, I don't care too deeply if my players don't think about the game between sessions much. But, I will occasionally ask them to come up with a story. Recently I've taken to starting each session by asking, "Tell me something about your character."

The problem, of course, is that they never actually spend time between sessions doing what I've asked. At best, they remember to do it an hour before the start of the game.

But you know, that's okay. What really matters is that they are invested during the session.

See, I think that players are more engaged during the sessions when they've maintained some engagement between sessions. That engagement might come from a lot of different things, but in the end it's about building anticipation -- either anticipation about how a combo will perform in action, or how a story element will play out, etc.

All of that said, I did once have an amazing experience during a Shadowrun game. I ran an entire arc where we were sending in character emails to one another between sessions, the content of which became an important part of the following sessions. But, that's the sort of thing you can only do occasionally.

That sounds awesome. I've had a few games that entered that realm in the past, too. Some players seem to be wired well for that sort of engagement, and others less so. But the style of the game can have a big influence on that, too. The engagement only lasts when it's rewarded, one way or another.

-rg

 

[BriarMonkey]

Unfortunately, I think some of what you are looking for will have to wait until we get more "bits". At this point, there is simply not enough to work with in the manner in what you are looking for.

Of course, there is the distinct possibility that there won't be more "bits" - and that the complexity or interplay simply won't materialize. However, with the playtest as it is, we are tied to what they release unless one goes off to create their own material. (External to story of course.)

 

[Dwimmerlied]

But spending hours tweaking feats, class option, power, spells, examining race and class combinations and pushing the envelope of the rules is - to me - missing the point. There is fun and pride to be found in rules mastery but I got a bellyfull of that from 3E. That isn't a core principle to be encouraged in any D&D game I personally want to run or play in; it's not something I see as wanting to build the game around - to say, "THIS is where the fun is - in the planning, not in the playing." Tried it for years and have now rejected it. But maybe that's just me.

I'm certainly not a powergamer, and I wouldn't play this way in a real game but man, I reckon if people enjoy tinkering, more power to them. There are a lot of optimisation boards out there with a lot of people having a lot of fun with what they can legitimately argue is D&D. They pour through the source books and come up with some absolutely crazy crap and overcome any rules limitations you can think of, but its just for fun. It adds to the dialogue and community, and some people are having a really good time with it. I'll never use those characters, but I get a great laugh reading those boards.

I'm sorry to use your post as an example, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I see these kinda elitist opinions about what the real d&d experience is and I think that it is more that which takes from the game than all the tinkerers and powergamers.

In reply to the OP, I can't see more tinkering options coming along anytime soon, I think its in testing for a whole other year, yet! I don't know about engaging between game sessions, but I get your point. Is it an option to keep playing your previous edition at the same time?