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Building a Monk/Summoner. Help me tweak him out?

marcielle

First Post
As a Synthesist, your Eidolon directly replaces ALL you physical stats as long as you are fused to it. If you have a higher Con modifier, you suddenly have MORE hp once you Eidolon is dismissed. Like how a raging barbarian gains extra hp from his Con modifier going up.

At least, that's how I THINK it works, extrapulating from the Barbarian.
 

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Ixis

First Post
The problem with that is that the new constitution score doesn't "add", it switches. The reason you use the eidolon's con score is because the eidolon is taking damage in your place. You may elect to take damage in place of the eidolon, but you do not gain to your constitution score, only choose where the hits go to. It isn't like the barbarian's rage.

Also, your hitpoints don't go up and down, they remain the same. Your eidolon still has its hitpoints, and you treat them as temporary HP. Life link is replaced if you read the rules.

Lastly, summon eidolon only brings the eidolon back temporarily, as a summoned monster and not a fused eidolon. The summon eidolon spells summons your eidolon to an empty square for a number of rounds equal to your summoner level, I believe.
 

kalgani

First Post
As Sytheist you got the Eidolon HP as Temp Points for yourself, so it reads like 44 (own) + 50 (Eidolon) and with Fused Link it is usable like 92 HP ;)
 

Ixis

First Post
As Sytheist you got the Eidolon HP as Temp Points for yourself, so it reads like 44 (own) + 50 (Eidolon) and with Fused Link it is usable like 92 HP ;)

Right, but if the eidolon is dismissed via damage (you run out of temporary hp), that doesn't mean that you switch constitution scores, gain HP, and then come back alive and re-summon your eidolon. Furthermore the only way in which that would happen would be if you reached 0 HP or lower and then, somehow still acting, had the eidolon lose it's last HP (your temp HP), then dismiss it which would give you extra HP somehow and revive you. I was saying that marcielle's strategy doesn't work because the rules don't allow it. Your original con score doesn't physically change, you're just using the eidolon's temporarily (which gives you the eidolon's con mod for skills and HP as temp HP for yourself.)
 

marcielle

First Post
I might not be getting something but when a barbarian rages and gains Con, he also gains hp. I thought the summoner would also gain hp from increasing his Con(your Con goes up when you Eidolon is dismissed due to damage because the Eidolon's lower Con score is no longer replacing your own). This is more of a silly thing than actual viable combat tactic cos you would still be on the ground and presumably in a threatened square.

On a more serious note, Enlarge+reach+Combat reflexes is genrally a good low level tactic.

Trip+Improved Trip+Enlarge. That's more than 10 to your CMB.

Mage Armor+Imp. Natural Armor+Shield. Doable at level 1 and nothing will hit you on less thana 20.

On an even more serious note, monk is still generally not worth it. Slams do more damage than punches. You can get 3 attacks and multiattack which is outright better than flurry. I do not think you can augment your unamred strikes with evolutions as it is an aspect of the summoner, not the Eidolon. Wis is a dump stat for Summoners and Cha is a dump for monks. You can pump a SINGLE slam to do near as much as both flurries hitting by itself at level 1 without sacrificing to hit.
 

Ixis

First Post
Yeah, you shouldn't compare it to the barbarian because while the mechanics are similar looking they function differently. This is almost a RAW/RAI problem (I say almost because you're taking the ruling for changing the ability scores of a character and applying it in this situation (when the eidolon and the PC are two separate characters.)

If a barbarian rages, or a mind flayer eats your brains or any number of other status effects that change your ability modifier, certain scores can go up or down. For example, when you begin a rage a barbarian's Con mod does go up, and this gives the barbarian extra hitpoints that last for however many rages the barbarian uses. Conversely, when a mind flayer or other monster lowers your int score you can lose feats, skills and other abilities.

That rule only affects things happening to a single character. The Synthesist doesn't change her Con score, she only substitutes it. The rules specifically states that you use the eidolon's con score, but your hitpoints remain the same (you don't gain or lose hitpoints, only temporary hitpoints equal to the eidolon's hp.) Now, you can technically use the eidolon's con mod for skill rolls involving constitution, and any special attacks that raise or lower constitution would raise or lower the eidolon's score (for example, if the eidolon somehow had a barbarian's rage that would raise your temporary hp for as long as the eidolon is raging), but you can't gain or lose hp because of your eidolon's con score.

Slams actually do the same as punches if you spec it right. A monk's robe raises your AC bonus and your punch to 1d8 (the same as slam), you also get to flurry with full BAB and extra attacks from having a BAB over 5. Slam is a natural attack and thus limited to the max number of natural attacks you can make, and the math for primary and secondary attacks never really looked all that worth it in the long run when I could equip weapons of varying elements and materials to add to my basic flurry. And -1/-1 plus full Str mod (not counting power attacks) isn't as limiting as 0/0 +1/2str mod for a slam with secondary attacks.

Furthermore it was ruled that unless you're specifically using those special monster accouterments (claws/wings/tails/etc) the monk's stunning fist and other feats will work. The monk's body is treated as a weapon that can do lethal, but a monster with monk levels can't use its natural attacks for the monk's powers, but it can use basic unarmed, similarly a monster with a sword can use a power attack or other combat feats so long as it's only with the sword. So you can punch with the monster, and it'll use your Wis mod for the monk powers and it's Str mod, but you can't add natural attacks or anything to that.

Math-wise, using the primary/secondary attacks probably evens out and gets better later on, but with the monk the cost is 1 evolution point (for going full-summoner) compared to flurry, stunning fist, bonus feat, unarmed strike and the bonuses to AC you get while wearing no armor. As a synthesist all your physical stats are dump stats except Con which can be "alright", and the monster doesn't need any mental stats whatsoever. So you're free to pump up Cha +4, Con +2 and Wis +2 (with Int, if you really want to, but it can remain semi-low) and be on top.

And again, if I wanted to make a big crushing monster I'd go all synthesist and make a broken monster with a million arms like everybody else. The goal here is to make a character that balances the Monk's MAD with the Synthesist's broken ability to cover a lot of stats.
 

Qik

First Post
I'm not sure if you're correct in that the summoner's hit points don't change when fused if the eidolon has a different Con modifier than the summoner's. There isn't anything in the rules that explicitly states that the summoner's hit points don't change, and I personally don't think it's there implicitly, either. But, that's not why I'm chiming in.

I think there are good reasons to combine monk and summoner levels. A one level dip in the master of many styles allows nets you a bonus style feat, and allows you to make use of two styles at the same time. That can net you some pretty fantastic combat abilities: Dragon style really enhances your pouncing/charging ability, snake and crane net you some great defensive abilities/extra attacks, etc. The Wis to AC bonus is great, even though you have mage armor and shield at your disposal, and you can afford to place points into Wis as a Synthesist. I think the two work well together.
 

Ixis

First Post
But that doesn't make any sense, because then you gain, effectively, double-hitpoints. You could just dump everything into the eidolon's con mod and become a beat (not that you couldn't already.) Plus the counter of having the eidolon get to 1HP, then you get low, then the eidolon get's sacrificed and you re-summon him next turn with your new hitpoints and now he's at half-hp (or half-temp hitpoints.) It mechanically doesn't flow right. The reason you're using the eidolon's con score is because it's around you, you aren't it... mechanically. You still have your own con score somewhere in there. Maybe I should ask on the Paizo boards, cause the wording doesn't support what I'm saying, but RAI it feels like you shouldn't be able to do that.
 

marcielle

First Post
Note that most of the bonuses of monks belt are given by advancing your Eidolon in the first place (damage and AC), only less so.

That said, I've looked at the styles and dragon DOES look pretty good for a striker. And flurry is hardly a painful loss.

Ask your DM if you can apply reach to your unarmed strikes, cos then that gets pretty good. Might not fly though, as thats the summoners NA instead of the Eidolon's(but they are considered 1 creature so it might?). If it does, push for improved damage too.

Eidolons don't really have many evolutions that synergyze with other classes except for pounce, and it is quite easy to achieve the role you want with straight summoner( a slam attack can even be a punch). However, the monk might work out and if it looks cool, then that's better than big numbers. Just saying that you CAN have both.

Styles: Other than Dragon, the others aren't really that impressive. Panther might be good since you should have a decent AC and basically have 2 hp pools. Boar might have worked out but there's the whole loss of flurry thing...
 

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