Bullrushing a surprised opponent?

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

This came up last session, and I'm curious as how the rules work on this? In our session, a ranger bullrushed a character from hiding (he was behind an illusion of a wall). How do the AoO's play out in this scenario? Does the surprised character get one?

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

When you say "surprised," what do you mean exactly?

Was he just not expecting the bull rush?

Was this during a surprise round (in which the ranger would be limited to a single standard or move action)?

Was the target just flatfooted?

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

Apologies. The attack did not come during a surprise round, but during an already active combat. The character did not know the attacker was there until the bull-rush was initiated.

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[RigaMortus2]

How close was the enemy from the illusionary wall?

I'd say he gets his AoO if the character had to move within range to attack the enemy. If he was right next to the wall, so it looked like the character was attacking through the wall, then I think he would not have his Dex as you are fully concealed (equiv to Invis) as you attack.

MHO of course

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

How close was the enemy from the illusionary wall?

I'd say he gets his AoO if the character had to move within range to attack the enemy. If he was right next to the wall, so it looked like the character was attacking through the wall, then I think he would not have his Dex as you are fully concealed (equiv to Invis) as you attack.

MHO of course

OK. Makes sense, and that's essentially how I ruled it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd probably run it similar to Riga's post, then.

D&D doesn't handle spatial awareness very well once you drop into combat mode - people are assumed to see everything around them constantly. There aren't any hard-and-fast rules that describe what happens when someone successfully hides, to begin with (yes, you'd assume that it means that the hidden character is invisible to the non-spotter, but it never actually says that anywhere).

I'd probably also toss in a Listen check (even if the NPC autofails), just because if I was a PC in a similar situation, I'd like a chance to react, too.

 

[Artoomis]

I'd probably run it similar to Riga's post, then.

D&D doesn't handle spatial awareness very well once you drop into combat mode - people are assumed to see everything around them constantly. There aren't any hard-and-fast rules that describe what happens when someone successfully hides, to begin with (yes, you'd assume that it means that the hidden character is invisible to the non-spotter, but it never actually says that anywhere).

I'd probably also toss in a Listen check (even if the NPC autofails), just because if I was a PC in a similar situation, I'd like a chance to react, too.

Sounds right to me.

 

[diaglo]

yeah, they got rid of facing.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The only other thing you might want to add, and this is on the boundaries of house rules, is if you are moving 5 or more feet toward the opponent as you Bull Rush, perhaps enforce a Spot vs. Hide to see if you catch him off-guard? This at least gives him a chance to "surprise" from a distance. I would do this is a player really pushed the issue (as we often do)

 

[Artoomis]

The only other thing you might want to add, and this is on the boundaries of house rules, is if you are moving 5 or more feet toward the opponent as you Bull Rush, perhaps enforce a Spot vs. Hide to see if you catch him off-guard? This at least gives him a chance to "surprise" from a distance. I would do this is a player really pushed the issue (as we often do)

That would work for me. I would definately not call this house rules, but instead a way to apply the rules to this situation.