Buy High, Sell Low is a Dumb Economic Model

What if they want to profit without resorting to tomb-robbing, theft, and robbery? Plenty of adventuring could still be had in such a campaign. What would it take to make such a campaign work?
D&D economics is steal free, sell cheap.

An economic model that makes adventuring obsolete would ruin the archetypal D&D game, and therefore may not be a good idea for any particular game, depending on how far that game is from archetypal D&D.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Having to quick reply from my phone... Remember you also have to pay an additional 5 gp per xp spent on new items... Magic items devalue as soon as they get off the lot even if only used by a Venerable Warrior to raid on Sundays...
 

A mercantile campaign works if you are going to have a group of individuals who are NOT just trading in magic items. There is an enormous amount of background in a mercantile campaign required, from hiring agents in various cities, using non-magic and magical forms of communication, willingness to travel, etc. I think that the average magical item merchant would do so as a lucrative side-venture as the instability inherent to a merchant's life should be in play. Ships go to sea never to return, caravans are ambushed, agents will be slain for that thousands of gold they carry on them. You also have to worry about the fact that most PCs are going to hoard their cash like stingy dragons.

Where do your PCs start in the supply chain? The procurement of magic items is like the raising of crops, building of homes, and running of a church. It is a business of trade, compromise, and hard work, and there will be a need for your so-called tomb raiders as much as you need strong bodies to protect your household and mages to make appraise your gains. Speculation, purchase, supply and demand, and the willingness to enter conflict will come into play, as a well-run mercantile house can become wealthy enough to sway the lives of an entire continent. You're looking to play the Medici, which would be an awesome campaign with the right kind of players :).

Beautiful.

Well, firstly, I've always thought that magic items really shouldn't be bought by players, only sold.

Especially in earlier editions, where they were not very easy to make.

But there were rules for Mercantile characters in one of the Gazetteers for Mystara, #11, Republic of Darokin. It was sort of a side class that characters could take.

Magic items have gotten a lot of discussion, because they're the obvious big-ticket items, but I could envision a merchant campaign set in a low-magic world just as easily. Some rare component, some valuable spice, really, anything worth trading for.

I think that the market supports not only agents but auctions, and letters offering rights to what they retrieve from various sites. I don't think we should all have to "pay the iron price" to get nice things.

An auction would be a pretty easy to set up as a DM, too. Just have a few NPCs (with agendas, of course), and the maximum prices they are willing to pay (not to mention the lengths they are willing to go to) to obtain the appropriate items.

The economics of magic items suffers from three things that make it really weird compared to modern economic counterparts.

1. Magic items never degrade...

2. There's no steady stream of better models coming out...

3. Magic item economics doesn't take demand into account...

...The easiest way to not have a problem with that is to have players who look at a hundred thousand gold surplus and reach for the stronghold builder's guide instead of the magic item lists.

All three salient points, though I do think that changing one of these assumptions would necessarily change the other two. As for strongholds--yeah. It would be nice if that type of thing were the go to, but, to do that, you really have to remove magic items from the system's mathematical assumptions.

For the most part, NOTHING in D&D degrades with use. There are exceptions, but let's be honest- most times someone is using "Mending", it's to fix something that was broken "of-screen", and the "Repair" spells exist only because Warforged needed special healing spells...

...But there is nothing stopping a DM from introducing scarcity and other pressures on the demand for an item- mundane or magical- from affecting price. Our group has been doing things like that for a couple of decades...and I'm the only economist in the group.

How do you go about doing it?

Assuming the 3.5 model in the following.

An interesting experiment would be to have a PC-run "magic shoppe" in organized play. With a number of players in the same setting, a "market" could potentially develop. If a PC or group of PCs tried to compete with the 50% bye price, 100% bye price NPCs use, how well would that work? How large a group of customers does a magic item shoppe need to survive on a lower overhead than the basic 50%?

I think working as a magic craftsman could potentially work, making items to order at 75% of normal price. You are selling your xp at the rate of 1 xp per 12.5 gp each. But since you'll basically always be a level lower than your adventuring companions, you'll be making 50% more xp on the same adventure, and being better equipped probably makes you at least as powerful as they are. The problem is time; you can only make 300 gp a day this way, regardless of level (since everyone makes magic items at the same rate of 1,000 gp per day). But making items to order is quite different from running a magic shop that actually byes things on speculation.

Interesting.

At this point it's question of how much detail you want to go into. (Which, for me, would mean "how much detail would actually be fun".)

Same question here. The answer, I suppose, would be "as little detail as necessary to capture the feel of it."

The simplest way to do this would be to assume that the fundamental economy of D&D actually does make sense: In 3E, for example, it makes sense for a merchant to pay roughly 50% of final price of a magic item and then resell it.

In 4e, on the other hand, the fundamental (magic-item) economy makes no sense (out of the box). It costs no XP to create a magic item, but costs as much to make one as its market price! Of course, it's pretty easy to get around this if you consider the crafting ritual a quick, in-the-field ritual and assume that actual craftsmen use a more economically feasible one. But still, that's an assumption...

Assume, therefore, that buying magic items at 50% of their final sale value allows you to earn a nice 10% annual profit. Actually, for easier math, let's assume 12%, which would mean a 1% return per month.

So there's your easy answer: If the PCs maintain a reasonable storefront, calculate their total volume of inventory (at 50% of sale price), give them a 1% profit on that volume per month.

As a model this leaves much to be desired, but it's simple. As more details are demanded, you can start tracking things like:

- What items are actually being bought and sold to generate that profit
- Reducing "effective volume" based on items they're overstocked on
- Effects of competition
- Effects of a Profession skill check
- Effect of how often the store is kept open
- Capping returns based on the size of their current market (fewer people buying a town of 10,000 than in a metropolis of 1,000,000)
- Figuring out exactly what size storefront is needed to adequately sell a given volume of magic items (and then accounting for the costs of that storefront)

And so forth.

A really easy way to develop this is to start with a very simple model and then start accounting for stuff when your players decide they want to try it. This dials the simulation into the level your players are interested in.

This system doesn't seem too different from the system put forth in...I think it was the 3.5 DMG II.

D&D economics is steal free, sell cheap.

An economic model that makes adventuring obsolete would ruin the archetypal D&D game, and therefore may not be a good idea for any particular game, depending on how far that game is from archetypal D&D.

Cheers, -- N

As I mentioned before, I don't think that such a model would make adventuring obsolete--far from it, actually. Someone still has to procure the goods and bring them to where they're scarce, after all.
 

Scarcity can be modeled pretty easily through the use of a random generator. Also remember that when events occur in world you will have different needs for items for different events.

To be honest I would go with four parties for four players. Each has his Big character (who his specific party goes around) and then smaller characters per each party. A player who wishes to go on an expedition to the Rage Forest Temple chooses his party and then each player chooses their party's current goals also. Then the group chooses which party to follow for the game. You then gather all members together at the end of the session to receive their notes from the offscreen parties. At any time the players may vote who to follow next and switch their party. If they want to follow multiple parties make smaller minisessions or extend the main session.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 


Clearly, the merchants have the "buy low, sell high" practice down, but what if the PCs want to do a little mercantile campaign? What if they want to profit without resorting to tomb-robbing, theft, and robbery? Plenty of adventuring could still be had in such a campaign. What would it take to make such a campaign work?

Trade in magic items would be an excellent adventure hook. These are, after all, objects of extraordinary value, sought after mainly by professional killers, in a world where the rule of law is probably somewhat lacking. Moreover, some of your wares have an agenda of their own. The magic sword you're hawking might be intelligent. The mysterious amulet could be a lich's phylactery. And then there's this odd mummified hand you ran across a while back...

Magic item merchanting is not going to be a matter of sitting in a shop waiting for adventurers to walk in and placidly fork over thousands of gold pieces for a +3 sword off the rack. Even if you live in a world where adventurers are common enough to make this a workable proposition, they're much more likely to kill you and take your stuff. That is, after all, what they do for a living.

If you want to trade in magic and stay alive, you'll stay on the move, making contacts where you can and keeping your head down. You don't ever want to stay long enough in one place for word of your presence to get around. You find a buyer and make arrangements through mutual friends, and then you show up, do the deal, and move on.

All of this offers endless possibilities for intrigue, betrayal, and bloody mayhem.
 
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wherein the PCs purchase an item at full price, get the use they want out of it, then get what limited cash they can out of it when they are done, or prospectors acquire items at no cost through various means (tomb-robbing, theft, and robbery, mostly), sell the goods for a minimal gain, only to have the merchant jack up the price and make a good turn-around on the items.

I am the operator of my families 3rd generation business... let me assure you this problem is not given to us by D&D, it's given to us by real life.
 

In 4e, on the other hand, the fundamental (magic-item) economy makes no sense (out of the box). It costs no XP to create a magic item, but costs as much to make one as its market price!

Wowza. I haven't looked at 4E in years and had apparently forgotten that entirely.

I remembered the 20% thing and that's explicable if you just assume the costs are high (in security, identification, etc.) and the movement in inventory slow.

Although.... Hmmm. Okay: The current gold rush on "magic from the old empire" has so depressed prices that current magic users really can't make items for less than the current market price. It really is a broken economy... or at least it would be if there weren't all these magic items laying around old ruins and adventurers stupid enough willing to go and bring them back.

Doesn't hold up for consumables. But maybe you could introduce a "producing in bulk" discount for those? (Brew up a single potion and its expensive. Brew up a hundred potions at once and you can save some expense on common catalysts or whatever.) Or just go with your "more efficient rituals" method.
 

Forgive any issues with this post... EnWorld is not too kind to my phone :)

Magic items serve as a great safeguard against inflation also. They are usable giftable and can be kept in a small space with proper protections that will allow them to serve. A noble house would save themselves a lot of hassle in paying scutage in magic items and some even serve as fantastic artistic objects. If I have 10k in gold I could put it into gems or other art objects... Or keep a cache of low enchanted swords to use when raiders come to attack my manor.

A wealthy family who has survived for generations could have many useful items to keep themselves ahead. There were contracts for mercenaries and guardsmen in many cultures where they were supplied weapons from their patron's stores. A maven of the arts may provide disguising items to their favorite actor's troupe, and there is always a need for ways to feed, water, and warm your troops. Many manors may use endless decanters for their water supply to prevent wellspiking and the Prince more than likely has a set of passed-down Figurinez of Wondrous Power for their personal play and protection. In a high or mid-magic setting none of these items are hugely player-affecting but definitely have needs that they fit. A merchant would do well to bring along his own prktections against poison, charms, and ambush... Documentation in the real world of amulets, gris gris, totems, and other objects abound.

Slainte,

-Loonook
 

I find it rather annoying that rpg:s don't have these rules. And when there are ones they seem awfully random. Let's say for example some writers include housing prices for Golarion area books and some do not. I want everyone to include them, they are useful. My players want to rent/buy houses/boats/ships/warehouses eventually grand houses and castles. Or small village.

When I was running Oathbound I included Auction House system to one city, for adventures/rich/gang leaders types of people using it mostly for expensive items. I got lot of laugh out of it after playing wow later but that another story. It worked pretty same however. Auction House had identifiying/curse-removal services, though there was also market for cursed items. Auchtion House runners always identified everything. It was very lawful and very pricey, and there were house cuts and storing costs in their vaults for long term sales. They had magical listing system. You could also leave messages there, like what items you'd rather trade it for. Seller still had to cover the house-cut. It was well working system for exessive adventuring. This was place for need and offer met on equal turf. Economy created itself for these expensive things. Not all of them magic, other kinda property traded hands too. Some days magical healing potions had price-peaks when some particulary bloody event was approaching. And sometimes there was really low prices for good stuff when someone really wanted fast sale.

Why this thing happened had history in that world. I can't really use it in most universes. Also Oathbound universe was very adventurer-dense.

My players have always managed to find better buyers for their things than some pawn-shop for magic.

But what I miss from system makers, are more price lists.
And they don't have to be wonky-winky's wonderful opal rarely with pearly buttens
I would actully prefer more general pricing state/community size based on those things I priorly mention. Also art object, large, rare or art object, medium size, uncommon would be good way to tell the prices for those smaller items. And then have separe lists where we can roll for qualities of item. All that golden pearly stuff.

Then would be easier to set general price level, and there still could be that eccentric noble-man looking for lin-jin's inmesurable jeweled whatever.

I don't want to price things myself especilly for general things. It's boring and feels like work and I would have to dissect not always so logical existing price-list.

Some micro-shopping rules should belong into all adventure games. And they should be easy to use, and make it fast. After ah so many (though friendly) arguments over costs of house-building. Which always include "but I have these materials ready/do this job myself".
 

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