Buy High, Sell Low is a Dumb Economic Model

[herrozerro]

Well, I don't know the "4e model" but that doesn't make any sense at all.

what doesnt make sense?

Magic items cost residum, disenchanting a magic item only gets you back a certain percentage of that residum (Scrap value).

Adventurers when looking to buy magic items probably are wanting something a little more then a stack of +1 daggers. Probably something custom or at least a bit more powerful.

Ergo, a potential magic item vendor would probably buy magic items at the scrap value to melt them down for residum to create or have created an item of greater value to sell Adventurers.

I dont see what's not to get.

 

[OnlineDM]

You make it sound like its such an unusual thing that it requires an all new game when really the only problem is that there's a handwavy guideline in the rules that suggests that loot be sold for 50% of it's list price as a simplification and abstraction of economic transactions. Why in the world would you need a whole new game for that other than D&D? All it takes is ignoring the abstract shortcut and actually roleplaying economic encounters. It's not even like it has to be a major campaign element to be satisfying to players who find the "you always sell everything at 50% list price" abstraction to be ridiculous. A little lip service to bargaining with a shoo-owner or wizard collector or whatever is all it takes.

The rules of D&D facilitate a lot of things other than exploring/slaying. I've never really understood why folks seem to only see exploring/slaying as valid activiites in a D&D game. It's almost like there are mass blinders on a whole bunch of D&D players that makes them unable to see a bunch of things that are actually right there in the game itself, or at least implicitly possible because there's nothing that precludes them from being in the game if the players want it. D&D players often seem so anxious to put themselves in a small little box about paradigms about the game for no reason. I don't get it.

I think I might have been unclear.

I'm not saying you can't run a shop in D&D, or have economic negotiation be a meaningful part of the game. I'm saying that the rulebooks don't help you much on providing guidance to do so.

A good DM can make up something that will be fun for all, of course, but I was saying that I expected that there are other games that specialize in this sort of thing. I don't know much about the RPG landscape (I'm still a relative newbie, not knowing the details of much beyond D&D), but since there are games that cater to all sorts of tastes I suspected that there would be a game that catered to the "economic role playing" taste. Maybe there isn't; I really don't know.

I also thought the OP was looking for more than just haggling; I thought that a more robust economic role playing system was being sought.

I'm also saying that I don't have advice to offer on this point since the players I've had so far have been focused more on exploration and fighting and haven't been interested in economic stuff.

 

[Agamon]

What doesn't make sense is a group of adventurers shovelling a bunch of their crap on a merchant and expecting top dollar for something the merchant isn't certain to turn around quickly.

If they want to spend the time to find a buyer interested in owning something they want to sell, they could get more than the normal 20%, possibly 100% or even more. If the players want to play Merchants and Marketplaces instead of D&D, let them.

 

[gamerprinter]

what doesnt make sense?

Magic items cost residum, disenchanting a magic item only gets you back a certain percentage of that residum (Scrap value).

Adventurers when looking to buy magic items probably are wanting something a little more then a stack of +1 daggers. Probably something custom or at least a bit more powerful.

Ergo, a potential magic item vendor would probably buy magic items at the scrap value to melt them down for residum to create or have created an item of greater value to sell Adventurers.

I dont see what's not to get.

The fact that one can scrap a bunch +1 daggers into something more powerful, is not what doesn't make sense, rather it the percentage of the value in 4e, based on scrap vs. cost of item creation - that's what doesn't make sense to me. The percentage should be much higher is my point. It seems much, much too low.

The process makes plenty sense, its the numbers that don't.

 

[herrozerro]

The fact that one can scrap a bunch +1 daggers into something more powerful, is not what doesn't make sense, rather it the percentage of the value in 4e, based on scrap vs. cost of item creation - that's what doesn't make sense to me. The percentage should be much higher is my point. It seems much, much too low.

The process makes plenty sense, its the numbers that don't.

Well, common magic items only give back 20% of their residum, while uncommon and rare give 50% and 100% respectively.

I attribute this to the quality of the magics and materials. YMMV

 

[S'mon]

what doesnt make sense?

Magic items cost residum, disenchanting a magic item only gets you back a certain percentage of that residum (Scrap value).

Adventurers when looking to buy magic items probably are wanting something a little more then a stack of +1 daggers. Probably something custom or at least a bit more powerful.

Ergo, a potential magic item vendor would probably buy magic items at the scrap value to melt them down for residum to create or have created an item of greater value to sell Adventurers.

I dont see what's not to get.

Well they would have to sell the new item at above list price, otherwise they've made no money on the whole deal!

 

[Loonook]

Well they would have to sell the new item at above list price, otherwise they've made no money on the whole deal!

Quick reply from phone...

Opportunity costs. Those +1 daggers are very meaningful to marines, soldiers, thieves, thugs and the Epic Chef .

There are always places where magic items CAN go. A player who gets these little tidbits can easily supply magic items to followers, as gifts, and in a variety of other capacities.

Personally I would like for magic items that players carry to be somewhat unique, and to be useful to the character. There should be opportunities to smith items into different shapes, bind items that constitute a part of the item, and even Conditions added to magic items. These Conditions would allow for an item to be counted similar to ammunition, and for most "permanent" items to have wand-like uses. Then an Indestructible or mystically sharp blade would be worth just a bit more... Also items such as Baned weapons would ignore their Condition when fighting the chosen creature type.

This is all combined witb the lack of use of Rusting, Sunder, environmental effects, and other damage to your weaponry... A thing I find the game to be lacking. Perhaps it is time to write up a more Simulationist aspect to the game... It seems that we would have cistomers for auctions, merchants, smithies, and possibly even improving animals from Medium Dog or Warhorse .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Nightson]

A 4e merchant wouldn't melt down items right off the bat, he'd wait to see if he could get a buyer for it first, and only melt down items for a new commission if he didn't think he was ever going to sell the item he melts down.

As such, 20% provides a price floor which any merchant would be willing to buy the most useless magic items imaginable for. For items which might actually sell themselves the merchant would be willing to pay way more. 50% for an item is still insanely good if you think you can turn around and sell it for 120% of the list price.

 

[kitsune9]

[MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION]. Brilliant and well-thought out.

 

[kitsune9]

Perhaps it is time to write up a more Simulationist aspect to the game... It seems that we would have cistomers for auctions, merchants, smithies, and possibly even improving animals from Medium Dog or Warhorse .

I had a DM who crafted trade rules before 3.5 came out with their version because our players wanted to engage in a trade business hauling goods from one place to another in between adventures. The DM didn't want to, but it was what we wanted so he did it. Really fun.