Buying off levels in nonassociated classes?

[Hashmalum]

I'm planning on using the "Reducing Level Adjustment" variant rule in Unearthed Arcana (pp. 18-19). While reviewing the rule recently, I came up with an odd idea to help out PCs with "suboptimal" multiclass combinations that I'd like feedback on: allowing characters to "buy off" levels in classes that are considered "nonassociated" (as per 3.5E Monster Manual p. 294), as if they were a level adjustment. After making the XP payment as per Unearthed Arcana, the character will keep all the benefits of the nonassociated class level, but their ECL will drop by one (which introduces the oddity of negative LA). I'll give a couple of examples of how this would work:

Example #1: A PC starts off as 1st level elven wizard, but after having one too many near-death experiences caused by low hit points and no armor, decides to gain his next level as a fighter to increase his survivability. The PC decides based on the experience that a more violent and combative style of play is more to his taste, so he takes 2 more fighter levels. At this point, he is a wizard 1/fighter 3, and becomes eligible to buy off his nonassociated class (wizard, in this case). He pays 3,000 XP to drop his ECL to 3. His character level remains 4, and his LA is therefore -1(!).

Example #2: A character starts off as a 2nd-level NPC human warrior hired by the PC group. In the course of play, the NPC's personality becomes further developed, and the NPC becomes an ally of the PCs. The NPC then gains levels as a fighter, under the instruction of a PC fighter. Because warrior is an NPC class, it is always considered a nonassociated class, so the character can buy off its warrior levels. Consulting table 1-1 in the UA and treating the 2 levels of warrior as LA +2, we see that the character will first become eligible to do this after 6 levels of fighter. At warrior 2/fighter 6, the character pays (ECL - 1) * 1,000 XP: 7,000 XP in this case. The character's level is still 8, but ECL becomes 7 (and LA becomes -1). At warrior 2/fighter 9, the character can pay an additional 9,000 XP to drop ECL to 9 (and LA to -2)--but no further buy-offs are possible, since all nonassociated class levels have been paid off.

So, what do you think? Too good? Or too costly, or too complicated, for too little reward?

 

[Vrecknidj]

I guess I don't see why this is useful. A human War2/Ftr9 is ECL 11 any way you slice it, so what are you after? Similarly, an elf with wizard and fighter levels takes no XP penalty, so what does he gain by spending XP to buy down something? What's being "purchased" exactly?

Dave

 

[Kelleris]

Vrecknidj, basically the idea is that you take an XP hit now to reduce your effective level. It has no immediate benefit, but your reeduced level eventually means that you recoup the experience points expended and then some. The ideas is that the bonus provided by being, say, a drow elf isn't really worth 2 whole levels at 20th level, which is probably true. With this variant, you'll be 7000 XP behind and a level ahead of where your would normally be.

The idea is that some suboptimal multiclass combinations - which is a pretty fair number of them, actually - should only count as partial levels at higher levels. Hence, the option to buy down those levels with XP that eventually represents only a fraction of a level.

Hashmalum, I like the idea, but it isn't something I feel like I can judge the balance of. Negative LAs may give you some very screwy results in terms of hp, BAB, and especially skills if you use this variant.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Vrecknidj, basically the idea is that you take an XP hit now to reduce your effective level. It has no immediate benefit, but your reeduced level eventually means that you recoup the experience points expended and then some. The ideas is that the bonus provided by being, say, a drow elf isn't really worth 2 whole levels at 20th level, which is probably true. With this variant, you'll be 7000 XP behind and a level ahead of where your would normally be.

Right. That's why I didn't understand the original post which described a human and an elf, both races without an LA, and then the multiclass combinations weren't combinations with an XP penalty--so I was confused.

I think I get the original intent now, and, quite frankly, think that the whole thing isn't a good idea. However, I think a suitable alternative for the whole LA/ECL thing is to have each LA associated with an XP penalty, like multiclassing. I haven't play-tested the idea at all, or even sat down to do the math. But, perhaps a -20% penalty for each LA +1 would do the trick.

Dave

 

[Khaalis]

I see where Hash is going with this and I see some inherent problems.

The "Buy Off" system allows you to buy off suboptimal 'levels' of racial 'Level Adjustment'. The reason it does this is because at high levels, being an LA+X race such as a Drow means very little powerwise when compared to the cost - loss of 2 class levels (class abilities, BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, etc.). However, most LA+X races are considered to be more powerful because they unbalance the game at lower levels, thus the LA.

The problem with allowing this system to "Buy Off" an effective class level by simply reducing the character's Effective Character level, is that the character will be more powerful at 20th level than any other class since you state that they retain their abilities gained in the class level(s) being bought off.

I understand the point in the elf example, for instance, would be to allow the character to not count their Wizard level toward total LA and thus become a 20th level Fighter without going Epic. However, they would in fact have the power of a 21st level character at 20th.

Now what I think would work along this line, is allowing a character to spend the XP listed in the "Buy Off" to allow them to DROP a class level and exchange it for an Optimal class choice instead. This means to entirely lose the old class level as if they had never trained in it. This allows a character to remove a mistake made at earlier levels but still places a cost above and beyond normal leveling to do so.

It would act in almost exactly the same way as the "Buy Off" but instead of just gaining a -1 LA and keeping all abilities, the character would pay the XP, and actually exchange the lot level for a level in the beneficial class.

Example #1: A PC starts off as 1st level elven wizard, but after having one too many near-death experiences caused by low hit points and no armor, decides to gain his next level as a fighter to increase his survivability. The PC decides based on the experience that a more violent and combative style of play is more to his taste, so he takes 2 more fighter levels. At this point, he is a wizard 1/fighter 3, and becomes eligible to buy off his nonassociated class (wizard, in this case).

The character has dedicated themselves to the fighter style and pays 3,000 XP to drop his level of Wizard, acquiring a level of Fighter in its place. This leaves the character 3,000XP behind the rest of the party, but still at the same ECL as everyone else.

"I once trained as a Wizard long, long ago, but found that the life of the warrior was my calling. It has been so long since that training I remember nothing of it anymore."

Thoughts?

 

[Vrecknidj]

I think dropping a level and switching it to another class is okay, but could be a real headache when it comes to things like skill point allotment and the like.

Dave