C&C - Maybe A Dumb Question but . . .

[GVDammerung]

Okay. This may be a dumb question but here goes anyway. I do not presently play C&C. I don't own the rulebooks but I have a preview booklet and I've read with interest all of the threads lauding C&C with interest. I like the sound of a simplier, faster version of D&D that is pretty much compatible with 3X more or less. I also like a lot of 3X' bells and whistles. So with that preamble here is my potentially dumb question -

If I play C&C but I add 3X D&D's skills, feats and PrCs, does C&C then became 3X D&D?

Have I created what I wanted to get an alternative to?

Or does C&C, even with 3X D&D skills, feats and PrCs still have something to seriously recommend it as an alternative to 3X D&D?

And if yes, that would be what?

Okay. More than one potentially dumb question. Thank you for your indulgence and any views on the above.

 

[Zulgyan]

Not a dumb question at all.

Numerous C&C gamers have incorporated feat systems to C&C. Not exactly the same but very similar to D&D 3.x. You got "power attack" and all that jazz in there.

The same with skills. There are many fan made systems out there. Many inspired directly by 3.x or just an adaptation of the it.

EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't aswering well your question.

C&C is MUCH more that a no-formal-skill and no-feat D&D. It's a completely different phisolophy in game design and play style. It's a reaction to D&D 3.x and it's departure from most of the past D&D tradition (in numerous aspects of the game, both rules and non-rules).

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

If you feel the need to add the rules subsystems for feats, skills, and PrCs to C&C, then I'd question whether or not a switch is really necessary.

IMO, C&C's strength is that it can handle almost all the same concepts/tasks without all the rules and crunch overhead. For example, I don't have a codified system of feats in C&C, but the built-in SIEGE engine can handle "feat-like actions" with aplomb, so I don't have to tell anyone "no, you can't try/do that" if they say they want to "power attack" or whatever. The same goes for skills. I don't have a codified skill system in my C&C game, but the SIEGE engine + the PC class + the PC's background can handle "skills." There's less granularity, but most of the time you don't really need all that granularity. (For example, if you're making a "dexterous fighter" then just make Dex prime -- he'll be good at all the "Dex stuff" without the need to use a system of selecting individual skills/feats/etc.)

YMMV, as always.

 

[Zulgyan]

I also prefer no formal feat and skill system.

But they are possible if you want.

 

[Mighty Halfling]

Speaking of dumb questions: Y'know, I've been hearing people talk up C&C for months now, but I've never once seen it for sale at a FLGS. I don't know who puts it out. I don't know its web site. So, uh, where and who?

 

[Turanil]

I like the sound of a simplier, faster version of D&D that is pretty much compatible with 3X more or less. I also like a lot of 3X' bells and whistles.

If I play C&C but I add 3X D&D's skills, feats and PrCs, does C&C then became 3X D&D?

Have I created what I wanted to get an alternative to?

Or does C&C, even with 3X D&D skills, feats and PrCs still have something to seriously recommend it as an alternative to 3X D&D?

And if yes, that would be what?

C&C is much more compatible with AD&D 1e and 2e than with 3e. Siege engine is not the d20 DC system; classes are simpler but also less powerful so ADD and C&C monsters fit better, while d20 NPCs won't fit.

You may add back some feats into C&C. The best method is to let PCs gain feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc. level, not add feats in the classes. Then, don't add all 3e feats, just the more easy one, such as Cleave, Toughness or Weapon Finesse (and there is an OSRIC supplement in pdf at RPGnow that would fit very well for this). On the oher hand, it's better to not add skills back into C&C, except maybe Craft and Profession skill turned as PCs' initial background (or 2e secondary skills).

 

[Treebore]

C&C is much more compatible with AD&D 1e and 2e than with 3e. Siege engine is not the d20 DC system; classes are simpler but also less powerful so ADD and C&C monsters fit better, while d20 NPCs won't fit.

You may add back some feats into C&C. The best method is to let PCs gain feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc. level, not add feats in the classes. Then, don't add all 3e feats, just the more easy one, such as Cleave, Toughness or Weapon Finesse (and there is an OSRIC supplement in pdf at RPGnow that would fit very well for this). On the oher hand, it's better to not add skills back into C&C, except maybe Craft and Profession skill turned as PCs' initial background (or 2e secondary skills).

Thats all dependent on what you want. One of the biggest things for me is that I can adapt feats how I want them to be adapted. Which is in a very limited fashion. I don't have my players earn them at level "X". They earn them after 25 successful SIEGE checks to perform that feat, in combats. Kind of a "learn them and master them under fire" approach.

So far my group of 10th to 12th level players have earned 1 to 3 feats per character, depended on how they played them in combats.

You could also have them earn the non combat oriented feats based on non combat role play.

As for skills, I adapted 3E's skills with some changes to fit how C&C works.

PrC's. I have adapted only 2 PrC's so far, but we like how it is working. Plus I don't allow PrC's to be started until after 9th level. So the first PrC level will be 10th.

Does my game play like 3E? Nope. Still a lot simpler, lot faster combat, etc...

Most importantly to me it has what I want it to have, and it still works smoothly.

BTW, C&C is done by Troll Lord Games. Their website is something I will edit in.

Hmm. I keep getting an "error on page" when I try to add the actual link. Here is the web address. www.trolllord.com

 

[Flynn]

I have seen links to variant skill systems, but none for variant feat systems, yet people talk about it all the time. Could someone post links to examples of what you are talking about here, just so that I can see how this has been implemented?

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[The Lost Muse]

I have seen links to variant skill systems, but none for variant feat systems, yet people talk about it all the time. Could someone post links to examples of what you are talking about here, just so that I can see how this has been implemented?

Thanks,
Flynn

I believe that those who want feats just add them back in, or at least that is what I've gathered from the various C&C threads.

 

[RFisher]

FWIW:

I was a C&C playtester. I have the PHB.

Personally, I'd rather play either the classic Basic/Expert D&D or a simplified 3e via some of the UA optional rules.

Although, I still haven't finished coming up with a version of the latter. I suspect I won't really be happy with it without a huge spell audit. If anything, that might be something to recommend C&C: The d20 spells seem to have been reinterpreted with an old school eye.

True20 looks nice too, but it's not really a direct D&D replacement to me. I'll probably use it for things I wouldn't use D&D for.

That said, I don't really have any significant problems with C&C. I'd happily play it, & I'd even run it if the group really wanted me too. (Although, arguably, I'd be running Basic/Expert D&D with a C&C façade. (^_^))