C&C: organizing 3e skills via the SIEGE system

[Akrasia]

Some of my players are still trying to get used to the SIEGE system, with its primes, etc.

Since they are already intimately familiar with the 3e skill system, I devised the following document to help them to think about the SIEGE system in '3e' terms.

Thoughts?
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Using the C&C SIEGE system to accommodate 3e skills

Below is a list of 3e skills, grouped under their appropriate attributes. Note that some of the attributes are different from 3e (e.g. climb is a dexterity ability in C&C, not strength). I have tried to organize them in accordance with C&C, but all the 3e skills should be listed.

I have also added a few abilities that are treated as 'skills' in C&C (e.g. the ranger's 'tracking' ability).

Characters can try any of these skills -- except those that are restricted to certain classes, or simply not used in the game.

When a character tries to use one of these skills, they roll 1d20, add their attribute modifier, add 6 if the attribute in question is a 'prime', add their level (unless the skill is a class ability), and any miscellaneous modifiers (due to spells, magic items, health, etc.).

A character's roll must beat a TN (target number -- obviously similar to the 3e DC).

Routine tasks: 9 or less. (Normally not rolled.)
Easy tasks: 10 - 15.
Average tasks: 16-20 (18 is the baseline).
Difficult tasks: 21-25.
Hard tasks: 26-30.
Damn Hard tasks: 30+.

The Primes and their Associated Skills:

Strength
Jump: @
Swim: @

Dexterity
Balance: @
Climb: @, CL [ranger*, rogue, assassin]
Escape Artist: @, CL [rogue, assassin]
Hide: @, CL [ranger*, rogue, assassin]
Move Silently: @, CL [ranger*, rogue, assassin]
Open Lock: SS or CR [rogue]
Ride (Horsemanship): CL [knight]
Sleight of Hand (Pick Pocket): @. CL [rogue]
Tumble: NA
Use Rope: NA

Constitution
Concentration

Intelligence
Appraise: SS
Craft: SS
Decipher Script: CR [rogue, bard,
Disable Device (Traps): CR [ranger*, rogue, assassin,
Forgery: CR [rogue, assassin]
Knowledge: SS or CL, depending on subject
Nature Lore: CR [druids]
Poisons: CR [assassins]
Search
Spellcraft: NA

Wisdom
Case Target: CR [assassin]
Heal
Listen: CL [rogue, assassin]
Profession: SS
Sense Motive: NA
Spot: CL
Survival: CR [ranger]
Track: SS or CR [ranger]
Traps, Wilderness: CR [ranger]

Charisma
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise: CR [assassin, illusionist]
Gather Information: CL [bard]
Handle Animal: SS
Intimidate
Perform: SS or CR [bard]
Use Magic Device: NA

Code:

@ = armour check penalty
NA = not applicable (not used in the game)
SS = covered by relevant secondary skill (i.e. you need the OAD&D DMG secondary skill in order to use this ability).
CL = only classes who have this skill as a class ability add their level to the relevant skill checks (other classes can try, but they never add their level). [Classes for whom this is a class ability are listed in parentheses.]
CR = only classes who have this skill as a class ability can use this skill (and they add their level when doing so). [Classes for whom this is a class ability are listed in parentheses.]

Regarding CL & CR: Classes with an * are classes who have a similar ability, but not precisely the skill in question -- e.g. rangers who have 'scale' (natural surfaces) but not 'climb'.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I tried coming up with something similar, save that mine was more 3e-based. Note that I haven't really compared this with the C&C classes like you have.


STRENGTH
Climb
Jump
Swim

DEXTERITY
Balance
Escape Artist
Hide
Move Silently
Open Lock
Ride
Sleight of Hand (Pick Pockets)
Tumble
Use Rope

CONSTITUTION
Concentration

INTELLIGENCE
Appraise
Craft (_______)
Decipher Script
Disable Device
Forgery
Knowledge (_______)
Search
Spellcraft

WISDOM
Heal
Listen
Profession (_______)
Sense Motive
Spot
Survival (Wilderness Survival)

CHARISMA
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Perform (_______)
Use Magic Device

When a character tries to use one of these skills, they roll 1d20, add their attribute modifier, add 6 if the attribute in question is a 'prime', add their level (unless the skill is a class ability), and any miscellaneous modifiers (due to spells, magic items, health, etc.).

I'm not as familiar with C&C as I would like to be, but I thought that skills that were class abilities had the class level added in, and if it wasn't a class ability, you dropped the class level. ???


Also, how do you determine which class gains which skills? Is it the same as in 3e? If so, what skills would the illusionist get? I would say the sorcerer skill list would fit nicely there.

Looks like you're doing good keeping yours close to the SIEGE engine mechanic. Looks like a good start.

 

[Treebore]

I don't know about Akrasia, but I approach skills so that anyone can do them. I only make a distinction when it is a class skill, such as something a thief/rogue does. Take Pick locks for an example. If you are a wizard type of class you can try to pick that lock, but I am going to raise the TN/DC by 10 because you are trying something that is a specialization of a character class.

Now say you are a thief/rogue and want to figure out what a spell you just saw cast is. I'll let you make a Spellcraft/Knowledge Arcana roll, but for the Rogue/thief it will be a TN of 28 instead of a TN 18 like it would be for a wizard type. The wizard, since it is a class knowledge kind of thing, would also have this check fall under their Prime, so the TN check would recieve the +6 prime bonus, lowering it to 12 for them, plus they would get their class level adjustment. So such a check would be much easier for a wizard, but not necessarily impossible for a rogue, especially if INT is one of their primes.

I also allow for players to train for skills. Meaning if they want their character to be able to make armor they can. Just that if they are a fighter they will learn it faster and cheaper than a thief would. All variables arbitrarily set by me.

I just won't allow class skills/abilities to be learned/taught. The only way a PC can learn these things is by becoming indoctrinated into the profession and take class levels.

 

[Akrasia]

I I'm not as familiar with C&C as I would like to be, but I thought that skills that were class abilities had the class level added in, and if it wasn't a class ability, you dropped the class level. ???

Sorry, that bit was somewhat unclear.

PCs do not add their level to class abilities if they do not belong to that class. E.g. a wizard can try to pick a pocket, but she would never add her class level to her attempt, whereas a rogue would.

Also, how do you determine which class gains which skills? Is it the same as in 3e? If so, what skills would the illusionist get? I would say the sorcerer skill list would fit nicely there.

All characters 'automatically' get all skills except those that are class specific. Indeed, they do not need to write them down.

I am using this list so that a player who wants to know "can I do x?" will have some idea, based on his experience with 3e and what primes and class abilities his character has.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I'm going to have all skills be "trained skills;" that is, all require specific training in order to add character experience level to the skill roll. Character's natural talent is expressed through prime abilities (effectively a +6 to the roll) and I will require specific descriptions of preparation to allow "circumstance" bonuses to a skill check for an untrained skill. This will encourage players that wish to add more areas of skill to their characters to seek out instruction and pay the appropriate costs in money, time, and possibly servitude (teach me the art of mystic bastket weaving, master! very well, but first, travel across the desert of woe and retrieve the holy mcguffin).

 

[Akrasia]

I don't know about Akrasia, but I approach skills so that anyone can do them. I only make a distinction when it is a class skill, such as something a thief/rogue does. Take Pick locks for an example. If you are a wizard type of class you can try to pick that lock, but I am going to raise the TN/DC by 10 because you are trying something that is a specialization of a character class.

...

I don't have a problem with some characters trying certain nonclass skills (e.g. a wizard pickpocketing). They don't get to add their class level, but I don't bother to impose a -10 penalty.

(Of course a wizard could never try to use the assassin's "poison" ability.)

I guess I like the idea of assuming that characters are very competent.

But I can definitely see how your approach protects the various 'niches' of the classes more than my approach does.

 

[Akrasia]

I'm going to have all skills be "trained skills;" that is, all require specific training in order to add character experience level to the skill roll. Character's natural talent is expressed through prime abilities (effectively a +6 to the roll) and I will require specific descriptions of preparation to allow "circumstance" bonuses to a skill check for an untrained skill. This will encourage players that wish to add more areas of skill to their characters to seek out instruction and pay the appropriate costs in money, time, and possibly servitude (teach me the art of mystic bastket weaving, master! very well, but first, travel across the desert of woe and retrieve the holy mcguffin).

I can see the appeal of this approach, but it looks like way too much paper keeping for my tastes.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I don't have a problem with some characters trying certain nonclass skills (e.g. a wizard pickpocketing). They don't get to add their class level, but I don't bother to impose a -10 penalty.

Don't forget to add the Challenge Level to the Target Number. Some tasks will be beyond untrained attempts just because of this.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I can see the appeal of this approach, but it looks like way too much paper keeping for my tastes.

Too much paper-keeping to have the player that has jumped through the neccessary hoops to write "Art of Mystic Basket Weaving" on his character sheet?

 

[Dragonhelm]

Here's a question for those who are more in the know about C&C than me regarding skills.

How do you handle characters who are really good at one area of specialty?

For example, let's say I have a fighter who happens to be a really good weaponsmith. Nobody can make weapons like this guy. Yet by C&C standards, he would do as well making weapons as he would intimidating.

How would I represent this character's enhanced ability to create weapons?