C&C Questions

[airwalkrr]

I am considering picking up C&C. As a potential convert, I have a few questions. For some background, here is what appeals to me about C&C, from what little I now. I viewed the preview and saw the assassin and illusionist are base classes again, which made me think that this must be a very old-school game. I like 1e AD&D a lot, but have several hang-ups, specifically about how saving throws and attacks work, plus the lack of a skill system. However, since it seems based on d20, I want to know more.

The character sheet has no place for skills. How are they handled? Because I honestly like d20's approach to skills and I wonder if I will like C&C's approach.

What about feats? Are they still around?

How does multiclassing work? I saw some references to multiclassing and dual-classing, another indicator of old-schoolness. Does it resemble AD&D rules? Multiclassing rules in d20 are the proudest nail of the whole bunch of d20 proud nails. It addressed a problem and brought up another which I feel is worse. Yet my players don't like AD&D multiclassing. Clearly we need a compromise.

What books do you recommend I pick up to get the essentials needed to run the game? I am considering getting the condensed version, but if I like it, I would want the full PH and then I'm kinda out 13 bucks it seems.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Hairfoot]

Wrong forum, my friend! Ask the mods to shift it to the General RPG forum. You'll get much better feedback there.

I'm an aspiring convert: I have the C&C books and we've run a couple of experimental sessions, but my group is a little hesitant to drop D&D. We'll decide when 4E comes out.

For me, the significant difference between C&C and D&D is that there is no "rule for everything", and the GM (knowns as the "Castle Keeper". Ugh.) is the final arbiter of what's possible and reasonable, which may or may not suit your game group. The result is a much faster game which doesn't devolve into a splatbook rules-hunt each time a PC does something new or original.

There are no feats in C&C, but characters can still perform the same actions that feats allow. For example, if your 2nd level barbarian wants to perform a cleave manoeuvre, the CK will set a challenge number based on the relevant ability (in this case strength), then you roll a D20, adding your strength + level. If the score beats the challenge, the "feat" comes off. Many CKs will reduce the challenge on subsequent attempts, or get rid of it altogether if you and the CK decide that it's now an easy manoeuvre for the PC.

As for skills, there is no formal system for adjudication. Again, it is for the CK and player to decide, with any test rolled against a challenge number.

In my game, for instance, skills are based on class and character background. If your PC is described as a woods-savvy ranger from the alpine peaks, I'll set fairly low challenges for skills like tracking, climbing, jumping, and survival, but higher for skills more related to urban lowland life. If the PC is a bard who grew up in a riverside fishing town as a child in a trading family, he won't have too much trouble with swimming, appraisal, or negotiation.

That's a brief example, but it's easy to define characters through their story and experience rather than their skill points. The benefit is that players don't have to agonise over "wasting" skill points just to be able to tie a reef knot or recognise an oak tree.

Multiclassing, as far as I know, is only addressed in a download document from Troll Lord. Basically, it's like AD&D multiclassing, but a little different. Again, the goal of C&C is to establish a setup which suits you and your group, rather than a set of hard, interdependant rules which must be adhered to.

But look, don't take it from me. Get this moved to the General forum, and go to the Troll Lord messageboards for all the info you need.

 

[Breakdaddy]

C&C is a freeform sort of game. It does contain feats or skills, but contains a mechanic that the GM can use to emulate either or both if he likes. I've also seen games where the SRD feats are plugged directly in to C&C and the SIEGE engine is used to simply mimic skills. C&C relies upon a good group dynamic to work but, when it does, it works wonderfully IMO. The GM should realize that the default answer when a character wishes to do something that could reasonably be done by that character is YES and not NO. He would normally assign a CL (challenge level, not dissimilar to CR in D&D) based on the perceived difficulty of the task and roll the SIEGE check. If the task is simple, he would likely not call for a roll at all, and simply describe the action as done in a cinematic fashion (at least in my game this is how it works!).

 

[JDJblatherings]

No picky skills, some classes have skills and special abilities but there is no master list of skills. You don't need them. Everyone has a set of PRIMES, which is a focus on an ability score. When you are checking vs a prime score you have a much better chance of success then checking against a non-prime score.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I like 1e AD&D a lot, but have several hang-ups, specifically about how saving throws and attacks work...

Saving throws in C&C are ability checks (e.g. Poison is Con, et cetera). Attacks work similar to d20, in that you have an attack bonus and roll to hit a target AC where higher numbers are better.

The character sheet has no place for skills. How are they handled?

Everything is an ability-check. Your PC assigns two stats (three if human) as "prime." Prime ability-checks are easier than non-prime ability checks (it's equivalent to a +6 bonus). So an action's chance of success depends on the following:
1. Difficulty (like DC)
2. Is the relevant ability Prime? If so, it's easier for you.
3. Is the action central to your PC's class? If so, add your level to the roll.
4. Any misc. modifiers that might apply

What about feats? Are they still around?

Everything is an ability check. There's no specific feat-mechanic, but feat-like actions can be handled with the ability check mechanics.

Example: You want a shifty, lightly armored fighter who can talk his way out of situations, as well as fight. In 3.5, you'd pick feats like Dodge and Weapon Finesse and skills like Bluff and Diplomacy. In C&C, you'd assign Dex and Cha as prime. You end up with the same basic result, it's just that the 3.5 approach is fine-grained and the C&C approach is coarse-grained.

How does multiclassing work? I saw some references to multiclassing and dual-classing, another indicator of old-schoolness. Does it resemble AD&D rules?

There are no multiclassing rules in the current core books (although the forthcoming Castle Keepers Guide is expected to cover them. There are multiple optional rules for multi-classing. The most official is the rules from the Castle Zagyg supplement (available as a free download). Those are very similar to the AD&D rules, and also cover dual-classing, which might be an option if your players don't like traditional multiclassing. (They also include an optional "skill bundle" system that is very similar to the approach used in EGG's Lejendary Adventure game.) There are also optional multiclassing rules available for download from Dragonsfoot (these combine the multiple classes into a single class, similar to B/X's race-based classes), and in one of the issues in Crusader magazine.

What books do you recommend I pick up to get the essentials needed to run the game?

I'd recommend the Players Handbook. If you have the AD&D monster books/DMG, then that's all you really need. If you don't have the AD&D monster books/DMG, then you should also pick up Monsters and Treasure.

Lastly, a brief word on 'missing' rules/subsystems in C&C. C&C is very easy to tinker with. It's extremely easy to import subsystems you like from other editions. You'll almost certainly do some house-ruling, at some point. However, my advice is to restrain yourself, at first. Try running it largely by-the-book until you have a firm grasp on how the system works. You might be surprised to find that some things you would've added simply aren't necessary.

 

[scadgrad]

…The character sheet has no place for skills. How are they handled? Because I honestly like d20's approach to skills and I wonder if I will like C&C's approach.

Personally I loathe the fact that D20 became a game of Skills, Feats, and PrCs. That's not D&D to me. The game became a game of "what will my character be like X levels from now" rather than enjoying the story and living in the now so to speak. We get along (my play group) quite nicely without skills, relying on rolling up random Secondary Skill from the 1st ed DMG and a paragraph or two of PC bio. This info coupled w/ Primes, character archetypes, and the SIEGE system make skill resolution a piece of cake.

What about feats? Are they still around?

We bring them in on a "swap one for the other" basis in our current game (we've been running campaigns since the playtest days). I've also played with them just like 3.X but it's too much baggage for me. YMMV, but I like my NPC stat lines lean and mean.

How does multiclassing work? I saw some references to multiclassing and dual-classing, another indicator of old-schoolness. Does it resemble AD&D rules? Multiclassing rules in d20 are the proudest nail of the whole bunch of d20 proud nails. It addressed a problem and brought up another which I feel is worse. Yet my players don't like AD&D multiclassing. Clearly we need a compromise.

However you want it to. I like the old 1st ed MC & DC system and so that's how we're running it (Humies can DC w/ a 16 in the relevenat stats). Again, if you can live with broad archetypes, you're probably going to love C&C. I personally hate the smorgasboard of 3.X character classes (I'll just touch Cleric for a level or two), but to each his own.

What books do you recommend I pick up to get the essentials needed to run the game?

Whatever D&D and AD&D books you have on hand that you like PLUS C&C 3rd print PHB and M&T. All the old modules work great from 1st ed-2nd ed. New stuff probably should be ran a level or three down.

Just wanted to add something, back in the day, when C&C was first introduced, we were all trumpeting how much easier it is for the DM (those of us who are BIG C&C fans) and how much easier it was to teach new players. Funny how now, with the teasers for 4th ed, those same folks who were telling us what idots we were, are now drinking the Mearls Kool Aide and saying basically the same things we were saying several years ago when talking about the "improvements" that 4th ed will bring.

 

[Treebore]

Go to trolllord.com

Look at and read the freebies, and then click on the forums link, sign up, and we can help you even more.

cncplayer.net is another good site to check out.

If you want feats and skills, we can tell you many ways you can use them in C&C, from as complex as 3E to much simpler.

I'll even share my C&C house rules with you, and so with others, so you may find everything you want to be in C&C worked out for you.

Anyone who wants to try out C&C games we have open on line games every wed and Frid. 6 to 9 PM PST, 9 to midnight EST.

We even use Goodman DCC's, D20 versions.

Just download SKYPE and Open RPG first. Go to the C&C forums and find the on line games section and I or others will help you figure everything out.

The free starter rules on trolllord.com will be sufficient to help you try it out.

I look forward to helping you, and anyone else, find out if C&C is good for you.