Call of Cthulhu: The Nature of Madness?

[WayneLigon]

Now, add to this the fact that a PC can lose sanity, and end up going totally nuts, just by reading "Mythos Books" filled with things man was not meant to know.
That would imply that it is the mere knowledge of the truth of reality that is the cause of this insanity.

You've answered your own question right there, really; the revelation of the true nature of reality - instead of the small tiny portion we're normally equipped to understand - is what causes the madness. The exact nature of that reality is, of course, unknowable. If you did know it all, and understood it all, you'd be nuts It's a circular arguement.

The 'meaning of life' viewpoint has some validity. Almost everyone who isn't already crazy beleives there is some point to life, that it has some meaning even if that meaning is contained only within philosophical constructs we make ourselves or have presented to us (both atheist and the religiously-inclined do this; the religeously-inclined can say 'It's X's Will' or 'This, too, serves X's purpose in some way'; the atheist creates meaning from her actions or how she affects the world around her). The idea of revealing that there is no point to existance and never has been will - should - eventually gnaw at the sanity of the affected person. Repeatedly having it thrown in your face eventually drives them mad.

The biological viewpoint has validity as well. Humans are only equipped (within the context of Mythos fiction) to perceive certain dimensions or colors. Being forced to endure exposure to Otherness is what leads to madness as the mind tries to perform the required operations to perceive this new reality and fails.

Seeing deaths and blood and gruesomeness don't normally produce insanity in stable personalities but pretty much everyone is going to have a bad reaction facing such a thing. Seeing it time and again can indeed unhinge an unstable personality (most of the people in Mythos fiction fall into this catagory - virtually all of them also come from a time when they were not exposed to movies and TV. The modern day CoC rules mention this effect, I think, and give some guidelines about it), especially if it's not their job to see such things.

People like cops and firemen and coroners eventually 'get used to it' (a very inadequate term but it's not the place to go into the mental 'compartmentalization' that some people in those lines of work go through), though even some of them eventually have to leave the profession. The people who don't seem to bat an eye at the most horrendous acts of carnage can either be what some psychologists refer to as 'invulnerables' (read:, we don't know why these people don't freak out when everyone else does) or they are in fact suffering from one of the milder forms of insanity where they block emotions.

In game terms they'd be 'temporarily insane' with repeated exposures that keep sending them back across that line; insanity doesn't mean you can't function. In fact when you go to 0 SAN, you kind of 'come back around from the other side' and can function with normal people again.

All in all, though, searching for a 'real world' reason is just useless. It works like that because the stories the game is based on work like that and the SANity rules are there to make sure it continues to function like that and people can't say 'Hey, that guy just fell into a 400-degree angle and vanished. See it, eh'.

 

[Nisarg]

Well, let's take magic as an example. You learn one day that by erecting a shrine to some ugly looking tentacular God, that you will be blessed with good fortune. And this ugly God thing doesn't just give good fortune as in things will generally be better. It actually gives you a couple of model girlfriends overnight, and by the end of the week you are rolling in cash and organising a party with free blow for everyone.

(SNIPPED the Slippery Slope)

And then the spiral continues. The God asks for larger animals. Then for people. You become accostumed to the good fortune the God has given you. You don't want to lose them. You do as the God wishes.

At this point you have lost contact with the rest of humanity. The world has become more about you and your God rather than you and your neighbours. You don't think you are insane, but to everyone else you most definately are. Ergo you are insane. Even though you did discover so much more about the true nature of the universe. Because you discovered so much more about hte nature of the universe...


The Horror

What you describe here is an excellent diagnosis of the typical cultist's descent into 0-sanity NPC cult leader country.

However, it doesn't really jibe in any way with the experiences of the PCs (or the typical protagonists of a Mythos story). They don't experience a slow obsession with an outer deity culminating in things that seem sane to them but are nuts to everyone else. Instead, they experience sudden hysterics, develop long-term mental disorders (neuroses, phobias, paranoia, addiction, etc etc) and eventually just go batf***ing crazy.

That's what needs to be explained.

If anything I think Django is the closest to being on to something here, his description of the real terror of the Mythos experiences being related to the total inability to trust one's own mind, one's own senses.
The Horror a victim of the Mythos experiences would be something akin to what a victim of Alzheimers or Dementia experiences in a brief moment of lucidity, knowing that you are slipping into a great abyss with no escape, knowing that what you see, and maybe even the things you do, under "normal" circumstances will be completely wrong, knowing that you can no longer trust anything your own mind is showing or telling you, because nothing actually makes sense anymore.

Part of the "experience" of the Mythos horror might be in the realization that its not just the universe that is chaos, and meaningless, but that even you are chaos, you are meaningless. Your actions are only the product of sensory organs that do not see reality as what it is, and your actions and values and will are all a product of biological survival instincts, with part of that survival instinct being your brain trying to fool you into thinking that these selfsame things have some kind of higher or more noble quality, when really they don't. You're just another animal, but with a self-imposed delusion of sentience.

Yup. I think that's it.

Nisarg

 

[Nisarg]

Religion doen't even enter into it. Exposure to the Mythos is a direct challenge to the commonly accepted world view. 2+2=4 or gravity. Exposure to a mythos creature or cities with eldritch geometries challenge the basis of a sane rational world. Prolonged exposure to the Elder gods skews a persons sense of reality from the percieved reality of the rest of us to the REAL reality of the Mythos.

Grim

But in most cases of Mythos novels or CoC games, the "reality" that is skewed isn't much more than some people's religious principles... other than that, what else exactly is skewed when you see a big blobby tentacly thing?

The fact that we aren't the only life in the universe? I would figure most people in the western world believe that already.
The fact that we aren't the only intelligent life? Well, even if most people may or may not believe it, they can certainly plausibly envision it, after some 80 odd years of Sci Fi movies.
The fact that this intelligent life is nothing like us? Pretty scary, and it might shake some people up, but that isn't precisely skewing with the physical laws of the universe.

But if you enter into the fact that these alien beings are as close as it gets to what we have falsely come to worship as "God", then that becomes a pretty horrific realization, for some people. For others (atheists, buddhists, etc) it probably might even prove some suspicions.

so anyways, what else is left? What exact effect are you talking about that manifests itself that shatters our view of reality?
I do think there's some examples in the Mythos that would fit what you're talking about: the colour out of space, for example, or the hounds of tindalos. But most of the Cthulu tentacle-gang wouldn't.

Nisarg

 

[ajanders]

Beyond this, sanity loss may also reflect a strange kind of higher awareness (that makes you act crazy once in a while, at least as percieved by the "unenlightened"), as implied by the aptly named The Horror. The link in original CoC between the sanity score and the Cuthulu Mythos score points to this.

This is actually not necessarily a bad way of viewing sanity loss.
Someone on this thread suggested that if you believed people drove by your house to get to work, you were sane. If you believed people drove by your house to peek in your windows, you were insane.
Of course, if people were actually driving by your house to peek in your windows, you'd be perfectly sane. Wrapping your house in a tarp would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Once you gather information about the Mythos, you become aware that people are driving by your house to peek in the windows.
And that doors have more than two sides, the interior angles of a polygon can add up to more than 360 degrees, and clocks can strike thirteen.
You adjust your life to function in this reality. You look sideways between doors, you listen just a little longer at midnight, and your protractor gets a little squiffy. People start to think you're a little squiffy.
The "insanity" of the Mythos is perfectly rational by Mythic Standards. If you provide sacrifices for Chthulu, he will aid you. (Usually by killing you after the sacrifice, instead of before or simulataneously with.)
If you read enough Mythos, you get the Mythic World ingrained into your head enough you become sane again...which is why cult leaders usually ignore the madness penalties.
Talk to a nice fellow named Mostin...he'll help you.

 

[Nisarg]

The 'meaning of life' viewpoint has some validity. Almost everyone who isn't already crazy beleives there is some point to life, that it has some meaning even if that meaning is contained only within philosophical constructs we make ourselves or have presented to us (both atheist and the religiously-inclined do this; the religeously-inclined can say 'It's X's Will' or 'This, too, serves X's purpose in some way'; the atheist creates meaning from her actions or how she affects the world around her). The idea of revealing that there is no point to existance and never has been will - should - eventually gnaw at the sanity of the affected person. Repeatedly having it thrown in your face eventually drives them mad.

.

Nope, don't really accept that as an answer. Because some people are capable of creating purpose for themselves, on an internal level, without any dependence on an external level.

A Buddhist would tell you that his purpose, his point, exists within himself, and in this moment. There is no outside force that granted it, or that could take it away, because it has no cause, and no conditions. That's meditation.

If what the Mythos did to you was reinforce the total purposelessness of the universe, a Buddhist would still be able to handle it, because everything that gives him purpose is within.

Now, if on the other hand, the Mythos destroys the very concept of experience, of sentience, and suggests that all of those things are just an animalistic trait no different than a rose's thorns or a squids inkjet, in other words if our very concept of Intelligence is meaningless, along with our concept of just about every other identifiable human trait, then that could even get to a Buddhist, or rather it would "redefine" Nirvana as something pretty horendous, about as horrendous as "redefining" Jehova as Azathoth the whirling mad tentacle-god.

Nisarg

 

[WayneLigon]

Now, if on the other hand, the Mythos ... suggests that all of those things are just an animalistic trait no different than a rose's thorns or a squids inkjet, in other words if our very concept of Intelligence is meaningless, along with our concept of just about every other identifiable human trait...

You have it exactly. Within the text of the Mythos, everything - every concept, every thought, every emotion - we as a race have felt, created, experienced... all that is just totally useless. That's what drives people mad.

 

[Dakkareth]

Also consider, that there's a big difference between imagining something and actually witnessing it. We can rationally believe that there is no point to humanity, we can picture the basic shape of some tentacled monster, we can create in our mind disturbing scenes of violence, etc. We are 'numbed' by countless mock deaths on TV. But this is entirely different from actually seeing it.

No matter how many action movies you have seen, watching a friend of even a totally unrelated person being shot is going to rattle you. No matter how sure you are, sitting in your warm and comfortable room, that logically humanity can't be more than a footnote in a sea of randomness, should you actually be witness to events that confirm this beyond any doubt or become (through a vision for example) immediately and fully aware of this fact, it's going to mess with your mind more than a bit. And no matter how obvious it seems, that there must be other live, greater and more intelligent than you, seeing one of the 'gods' of the Mythos with your own eyes, in all their reality-breaking presence, you're going to become insane.

I for example know rationally and with fully clarity, that the absence of light is usually no more than a mild nuisance. If I'm walking down the stairs and suddenly the light goes out, I'm still freaked out. I know, that there's no way some moth is going to harm me, but if there's one fluttering in my face, I'll still panic. How much worse would it be, if it was the size of a hand and made strange gurgling sounds? Rational knowledge has nothing on visceral fear, reflexive actions and the basic instinct that is ingrained in every brain. The impact of something you perceive as real with your very own senses isn't going to be lessened by much.

The danger of Mythos tomes lies in the power of language. They are not written like a laboratory report, they are written by inhuman sorcerers, charismatic cult leaders or alien servitors, who are one and all utterly insane. This insanity is reflected in the writing, can be seen by the reader through the window of words and sentences. Noone would deny the power that can lie in a poem of four lines. Why should the madness brough to paper by Abdul Alhazred, the view of the reality he saw, his mind-shattering realizations be any different?

 

[shadow]

Nisarg brought up a point that has really bothered me about the whole Cthulhu mythos for some time. What makes knowledge of the Cthulhu mythos so horrifying as to drive people insane? Knowledge that there is no higher power, and that life is meaningless? A depressing philosophy perhaps, but what about atheists who already believe such a thing? The idea that the Old Ones are essentially "malevonlant gods"? Such a belief is already presesnt in the real world - <a HREF="http://belief.net/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=42416&discussionID=164781" target="_blank">maltheism</a> (the belief that the god are essentially evil.) The belief of maltheism is present to some extent in Gnosticism.

Moreover, how does merely catching a glimpse of one of the Old Ones drive a person insane? I mean, sure a person would be frightened, but how does the mere sight fill the person with horrible cosmic truths? Do the Old Ones telepathically pipe the knowlege directly into the character's head? How does reading the Necronomicon and other ancient tomes drive a persone insane? What if a person read the book and thought it was just a load of bull?

The truth is that the whole Cthulhu mythos are essentially pulp horror. Pulp tends to gloss over such plot details and asks audience to accept them. Just as audiences don't ask how a hyperdrive engine works on Star Wars, or how a wizard is able to cast a fireball in D&D, don't bother trying to explain why the Cthulhu mythos are so horrifying - they just are.

 

[Kesh]

The usual mistake people make is assuming that the universe in the Mythos world is the same as our own, only with Elder Things.

It's not. And that's the point..

All our science, intelligence, religion, evolution and rational thinking... is wrong. In the Mythos universe, none of it matters because none of it is true outside our little mudball. Beyond our world, reality just doesn't work the way we expect.

That's the mind-shattering bit. Trying to understand these strange, chaotic aspects of reality is what destroys sanity in CoC. Finding out that beings exist on a world awash in the aether of time causes insanity because we know that this aether of time doesn't exist! All our science, all our beliefs say that it can't. And yet, here's this alien being telling you that it does. Oh, and he'd like a portion of your liver, while he's at it. To put in his nest for safekeeping.

It's not as simple as saying, "Oh, right then, keep it safe!" Most folks will gibber, be confused and generally object to having part of their anatomy taken from them by this thing that looks like a three-foot-high dragonfly that speaks with an Australian accent.

With the tomes, it's a little more complex. In those cases, it's that part of the text seems like gibberish... but if you read it just right, for long enough, and squint a bit it does start to make sense. Trouble is, what makes sense doesn't jive with reality. Turning around three times, yelling "Ish falla N'geth'rah!" at the top of your lungs and jumping into a shadow shouldn't let you pass through walls... but it does. And it should, according to the book. From there, the rest of it starts to sound reasonable...

 

[WayneLigon]

Knowledge that there is no higher power, and that life is meaningless? A depressing philosophy perhaps, but what about atheists who already believe such a thing?

Quite untrue.

Moreover, how does merely catching a glimpse of one of the Old Ones drive a person insane?

This goes back to the 'biological' part of the SAN Loss idea. The Old Ones and the other 'gods' are not formed by matter such as we know it. The various books speak of 'strange angles' and such, and by things that could not exist in our mere three dimensions but at the same time do. Certainly no mere illustration can convey what such a thing must look like. It's that 'yes and no' aspect that causes someone to lose sanity.

The mind tries to fit everything it encounters into patterns it already knows. You can see this effect once in awhile when you think you see something but upon closer examination it becomes apparent that you did not in fact see what you thought you saw; it was your mind 'playing tricks' on you. It perceived a pattern, though it recognized it, and filled in the blanks with knowledge it already had.

One of the central ideas of the Mythos is that everything we think we know or see is in fact wrong. It's a product of our limited senses and perceptions. Mathematics doesn't in fact work. 1+1 does not and never has equalled 2. Physics doesn't behave the way we think it does. The vast multi-dimensional entities of the Mythos are in fact 'more' real than anything humans have ever encountered. When the human mind encounters such beings, it cannot perceive them as they really are; the human brain simply is not biologically equipped to do so. It's like describing 'red' to someone who has been blind all their life. The human brain tries to fill in the blanks, but cannot; it's overwhelmed by what it perceives. Perception and cognition break down, resulting in madness.