Calling 4e designers & developers.... Please explain the skills to class ratio

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'd be willing to bet my grandmother's grave that no designer will comment here because there's no underlying philosophy to account for the different number of trained skills, or for who has access to which class skills. Other than maybe "it fits the class from certain undefined and subjective idea of class fluff."

If it bothers you, house rule all classes to have the same number of skills; it won't break anything. I myself mostly house rule away class skills.

 

[Imaro]

Quick question... Does anyone know if there is a way to change the number of skills allowed and/or what skills are allowed for a class in the character builder?

 

[fireinthedust]

I don't like the list of class skills for some classes as I find it limiting. Granted, I understand that taking additional feats make sense for some instances. Others, however, are silly.
For example, my Paladin with 18 Strength cannot take Athletics. I don't know how many 18 Strength knights-in-shining-armor you know, but I can't imagine anyone (who can fit in platemail) with 18 strength not being an athlete.
Likewise, Religion is now Int-based, which Paladins and some other divine characters don't use. So the expert on Religion in the party is going to be... the Tiefling Wizard or the Genasi Swordmage?! I studied religion in school, sure, and I get that "Astral Sea Lore" makes sense as a scholarly pursuit, therefore is Int-based (and there are some foolish-but-brilliant people out there in all fields, so high Int low Wis). However, characters whose focus is religion should have some sort of balancing feature for it of at least the amount they'd get with a religious background!


I get the archetypes, but I have other problems on my mind for characters. While the combat portion is great, there is something to be said for allowing the skill selection to be more customizable without a houserule for it. I mean, I figure a paladin or cleric whose upbringing was with the poor would have access to Streetwise without having to spend a feat on it.

 

[fireinthedust]

Quick question... Does anyone know if there is a way to change the number of skills allowed and/or what skills are allowed for a class in the character builder?

did you try the Houserule yellow house symbol? I click it in the equipment section and it lets me add things to my character's list like "mouldy loaf of bread" and "stale cheese" and "rusty key". I wouldn't be surprised if the same button would let you add in more skills.

 

[Imaro]

did you try the Houserule yellow house symbol? I click it in the equipment section and it lets me add things to my character's list like "mouldy loaf of bread" and "stale cheese" and "rusty key". I wouldn't be surprised if the same button would let you add in more skills.

Hey, thanks... I don't know why I never even noticed that before.

 

[Garthanos]

I mean, I figure a paladin or cleric whose upbringing was with the poor would have access to Streetwise without having to spend a feat on it.

upbringing = background - check them out.. makes class skills out of something not a class skill.(thats easy peasy no house rule at all).

The only ones trained in our group in religion are the ones whose classes require it... so if your paladin would match the 18 intelligence mega wizard scholar type and thats with a 8 intelligence

an 8 int paladin is such a focused boy... figure if he barely matches the wizard using general knowledge on even his supposed feature area of knowledge its because well it really wasn't his focus or his int would be higher.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think just 2 classes got less than that, which are the Barbarian and Fighter who only have 3. These 2 classes got less skills in 3E as well (the equivalent of 1 and 2 skills, respectively).

3E Barbarians got 4 + int skill points, more than Fighter, Wizard (before the int, of course ), Sorceror, Cleric, and Paladin.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

It's not about spotlight but when I have a player with 3 trained skills and another with 6 trained skills and we're doing a complexity 3 or higher skill challenge, my player with 3 skills tends to get repetitive and bored with it much quicker than my player with 6. It's about fun and participation...

Imaro scores a Crit hit on my pet peeve of skill challenges....

..And I admit I am struggling with getting my group out of this mentality, but participation in a skill challenge does not mean to spam your highest scored skill. The DC's in both the revised RAW and in Stalker0's Obsideon system are designed so that an untrained check can be a success.

Stalker0's system is better, IMHO, because there isn't the fear of 'losing' the challenge by failing a single roll of the dice and less of a mechanical emphasis to have the non-skill monkey sit the encounter out.

I want the player paradigm where 'untrained' = 'pretty good' and 'trained' = 'world class/olympic'.
This paradigm changes the question of the differences in skill distribution a bit, but I agree with an earlier poster that I think its all based on 'this feels right'. Skill monkey classes and 'studious' classes have a higher number, tanks have a lower number....

Anyway, enough of a derailment... back to your usual thread!

 

[malraux]

3E Barbarians got 4 + int skill points, more than Fighter, Wizard (before the int, of course ), Sorceror, Cleric, and Paladin.

But often the barbarian was a negative int race, and it was clearly a place to put a dump stat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But often the barbarian was a negative int race, and it was clearly a place to put a dump stat.

Int was also commonly a dump stat for...every single other class that got less than the Barbarian, except the Wizard.

Barbarians were not inherently poor in the skills department. No more so than other classes, comparitively.