Campaign and PC development - crisis, need your help

[Erevanden]

First of all, hello all visitors to this somewhat burned out DM's thread

Second, here's a problem that's been growing since march, around the time my group suffered a sort of "disbanding", as some members decided to leave due to personal problems or conflicts with other members.

The reasons are, however, quite irrelevant.

What is important is the fact, that this situation completely ruined the campaign as it was envisioned by me, and thrown all our game sessions ever since into disarray.

I have two main problems, and finding a "right on target" solution seems beyond my capabilities...help me, please !!

Problem I

My current party consists of: a goblin cleric of Bargrivyek, a shadow human cleric of Shar (from the City of Shade), a duergar fighter (newest addition, a long time player, though) and female drow necromancer (formerly a devoted follower of Kiaransalee, currently becoming fascinated by Kelemvor and his dogma).

The problem lies in my playe's total lack of ideas regarding their characters' wants, needs, goals and ambitions. None of them can make any reasonable statement about their expectations, not even a single thing that could be used as a "building block" for an adventure, a scenario, hell, even a quest.

So far I've been thinking about creating some sort of written survey, but alas, preparing a set of questions that would generate data actually useful in creating a plot that would help in strengthening their bond as a group and allow me to make the "bad guys" less "typical" and more "story integrated and mutual" kind of BBEGs.

Did any of you Game Masters ever found himself in a similar situation ? How did you remedy the problem ? Any information will be helpful, no matter how vague.

Problem II

I cannot hink of any good reason to make the players feel the need to actually remain together and strengthen their bonds. So far only some of their goals are even moderately connected and noone has a goal that would require them to work as a group, in order to be achieved, and would be seen as resulting in some benefits for every character individually.

I do not want to force or suggest my players to do anything, but rather seek means to increase their personal input in their characters' development and the campaign progress.

Got ideas, post them. Any bit of information or inspiration will be helpful !!

 

[anest1s]

I do not want to force or suggest my players to do anything, but rather seek means to increase their personal input in their characters' development and the campaign progress.

That exactly is the problem. The players wont have any personal interest, until they have a reason to. And they wont have a reason to, if you don't force them one.

After NPC A promises them great riches/power if they do X, and after they do it, making NPC B angry, they find that NPC A hides a secret from all of them, and that NPC B is someone they need to worry about.

What they will do with their reward, will show you what you should do next. Their out of character commends will help you too. The reason someone says "hey, imagine if I was the King" is because he wants it to happen, even a little.

 

[Rune]

The problem lies in my playe's total lack of ideas regarding their characters' wants, needs, goals and ambitions. None of them can make any reasonable statement about their expectations, not even a single thing that could be used as a "building block" for an adventure, a scenario, hell, even a quest.

Hmmm. Tough situation. Sounds like they have no emotional investment in playing the game. I could give you a bunch of ideas for having them generate backgrounds, goals, hooks for their characters, but, really, it probably won't work unless you can find a way to spark the players' interest. You say that the reasons for the group's disbanding are not relevant, but they probably are the only relevant thing at this point. Find out what's wrong with the players' dynamic and work on fixing it. Then and only then, should you worry about the characters' dynamic.

I cannot hink of any good reason to make the players feel the need to actually remain together and strengthen their bonds. So far only some of their goals are even moderately connected and noone has a goal that would require them to work as a group, in order to be achieved, and would be seen as resulting in some benefits for every character individually.

I'm a little confused whether your discussing your players' motivations or their character's (perhaps that's no accident). If I've misread you and your players are all cool, than my points above are not necessarily relevant; character conflict can be good for a game--just play them off of each other in subtle ways (the cleric's superior says something racist about the goblin, as an example) until they learn that there best chance of survival means bonding together.

If, on the other hand, the problem is that the players have a fractured relationship, you all are just going to have to sit down get on the same page, or the rifts will only widen.

 

[steeldragons]

....here's a problem that's been growing since march, around the time my group suffered a sort of "disbanding", as some members decided to leave due to personal problems or conflicts with other members.

The reasons are, however, quite irrelevant.

If it's carrying over into the players who you still have, I would say those reasons are neither irrelevant nor inconsequential. Are the remaining players, perhaps "missing" the players that left? Are the players who left the ones who were the source/causing the conflicts...or are you left with the problem-starters?

What is important is the fact, that this situation completely ruined the campaign as it was envisioned by me, and thrown all our game sessions ever since into disarray.

Always a hazard of campaign/game development...you can never (completely) accurately take into account the minds of the other people involved. I don't think there's a DM out there that can say, "Yes, that campaign went exactly as I'd planned/wanted it to." It's just a facet of the RPG.

However, is this "ruining of the campaign" because the players you started with are not there...or you had "big plans" for the characters who have left? If it's just the latter, bring the characters back in as an NPC...or generate another similar NPC to engage in your plot hooks.

If it's because of the actual players missing, not their characters, then I don't know what to tell you. A lot of time has passed since March. You could always approach the people and see if they'd be willing to "give it another try"?

Problem I

My current party consists of: a goblin cleric of Bargrivyek, a shadow human cleric of Shar (from the City of Shade), a duergar fighter (newest addition, a long time player, though) and female drow necromancer (formerly a devoted follower of Kiaransalee, currently becoming fascinated by Kelemvor and his dogma).

Well, this sounds like your problem right here...Is this an "Evil" party or you have a band composed solely of "exceptions to the rule" members of distinctly evil races?

If they are evil, they are usually a pain in the neck simply because they are all out for themselves and getting them to work together requires some really strong "control" on your (or some very controlling PC's) part. i.e. there has to be some overwhelming really really bad (or good) thing that forces them to WANT to work together....acknowledge that they "need" each other to accomplishm their collective and, probably more likely, individual goals.

The problem lies in my playe's total lack of ideas regarding their characters' wants, needs, goals and ambitions. None of them can make any reasonable statement about their expectations, not even a single thing that could be used as a "building block" for an adventure, a scenario, hell, even a quest.

Well, all I can say to this is...Why not?!

When the next game wraps up (or via email or phone calls if you prefer), "Hey guys, next session, I want a piece of paper with 3 things your character wants on it. Could be a magic item, a career goal, a personal vengence/I want so-an-so dead...whatever. But 3 things each your character wants, next session."

Done.

Also, are you certain that's where the "problem lies?"

Are your players having fun? Do they WANT to continue with the group/characters they currently have? Are they enjoying what you have them doing? Which is what, btw? If they don't have goals/are barely linked together...what DO you have them do when you game?

Frankly, if the players are not "into it"...then (sorry to say since you seem to have this big campaign thing you spent time on and want to get through) it's time to change the party, maybe even (for a time) the whole game (i.e. play something else, not D&D) to reinvigorate the players' interest.

So far I've been thinking about creating some sort of written survey, but alas, preparing a set of questions that would generate data actually useful in creating a plot that would help in strengthening their bond as a group and allow me to make the "bad guys" less "typical" and more "story integrated and mutual" kind of BBEGs.

Way more than you need to do as DM. See above. You have 4 characters, 3 things each, that's 12 options for plots hooks, adventures, whatever.

But why/how your players aren't able to give you this already (I presume you've asked them?), THAT is a serious question.

I would put forth the proposition, that this party (or, sadly, even the group) might simlpy "be done." If the players can't give you anything their characters want, then what's the point in playing? Why is the character adventuring? Why is the character remaining with these other characters?

Between the real life problems that caused you to lose players, and an increasing tension building in-game since last March, it may simply be time to say, "Ok, you guys go your separate ways and lead out your personal schemes/lives." Possibly to reappear as a NPC in some other campaign or a villain for your new party.

It may be time to simply say, "Get out the handbooks and the dice and start rolling up new characters."

If/when there's a round of whining "What? Noooo." I would put it to them...point blank. "Well, then tell me, what are you guys doing together? Why are you (goblin cleric) wandering around with him (human cleric)? What are you looking for? Why haven't you (duergar) tried to assassinate her (drow) yet? What are you plotting towards? Why is there any reason for you to continue in this storyline?"

If they have/give you reasons, bully. If not (and I suspect from what you say, they would not be able to) new characters party time...(and preferably, don't let choosing evil races be the norm

Problem II

I cannot think of any good reason to make the players feel the need to actually remain together and strengthen their bonds. So far only some of their goals are even moderately connected and noone has a goal that would require them to work as a group, in order to be achieved, and would be seen as resulting in some benefits for every character individually.

2 options. 1) See "Scrap 'em/New characters" above. 2) MAKE something their goal. You're the DM. Pull out the stops. Throw something HUGE at them that threatens them all or the whole country they're in or their entire race(s)/way of life...

Maybe some crusade begins to "genetically cleanse" the Underdark. The do-gooders of the world have finally had enough and the super powerful heroes of LG have pooled their immense resources and power to rid, "once and for all", the world of "evil" races...

Actually, that's pretty good off the top of my head...I think I'm gonna use that one myself....But you're welcome to it too.

I do not want to force or suggest my players to do anything, but rather seek means to increase their personal input in their characters' development and the campaign progress.

Got ideas, post them. Any bit of information or inspiration will be helpful !!

Once again, YOU are the DM..."forcing them" is kinda your job. I don't mean "railroading"...but some gentle prodding or direction on the DMs part is pretty standard, I think. In the case you describe, where they're not taking any initiative of their own, "forcing them" along some path or the other seems to be well within your rights and power...if you wish to continue with this group of characters. Personally, I'd get a new party.

Good luck, let us know how things go.
(Try to) Have fun and happy gaming.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Erevanden]

Are the remaining players, perhaps "missing" the players that left? Are the players who left the ones who were the source/causing the conflicts...or are you left with the problem-starters?

Well, we had an internal conflict which resulted in two players - a guy and his girlfriend, leaving the group. They were our friends for several years, but recently they broke with each other, announced "sex buddies" status and began acting all weird. He treats her like air, she seems desperate to remain his girlfriend, oblibious to all signs of his disinterest. He always was an aloof, with a "yeah, whatever, I couldn't care less" attitude and she's got problems with her parents, being also overreacting, sometimes hysterical and prone to getting upset really quick.

For a long time most of the group did everything in their power to ignore all the irritating behavior, but recently " hit the fan" and we parted ways. At least for a time, because they (the girl to be exact) are trying to regain contact with us, but about half of the group is adamant in breaking all contact with them, believing nothing has changed. They are propably right, though

Well, this sounds like your problem right here...Is this an "Evil" party or you have a band composed solely of "exceptions to the rule" members of distinctly evil races?

If they are evil, they are usually a pain in the neck simply because they are all out for themselves and getting them to work together requires some really strong "control" on your (or some very controlling PC's) part. i.e. there has to be some overwhelming really really bad (or good) thing that forces them to WANT to work together....acknowledge that they "need" each other to accomplishm their collective and, probably more likely, individual goals.

Indeed, the original idea was to play a cold hearted, evil, backstabbing, cruel and vile party. It didn't work out, as most of the players didn't want to ruin their friends' fun, but the races and surroundings remained.

However, most of the players chose to stick to their initial character, but try to play "smart evil" not "chaotic stupid".

The goblin cleric is LN, the drow necromancer is slowly going from CN to N, the cleric of Shar is NE (as in selfish and cold hearted but not vile and cruel) and the duergar is LE.

So far they have a set of individual goals and they need each other's help to fulfill them. All of these goals were my ideas, without any input from the players themselves.

The human cleric's player is a very deep roleplayer, clever strategist and an experienced gamer with strong ideas about his character - the background, details, history and some personal goals.

The goblin player is also experienced, but he is not a brilliant person, not saying he's stupid or something, but prone to acting before thinking and very emotional about many things. This caused some really good laughs and lightens the mood, but also tends to irritate other people at times. His favorite spell is a maximized flamestrike...

The drow necromancer is the second guy's girlfriend, also an experienced player, but a very emotional person as well. She doesn't really know what to do with her character, but wants to stick to it out of personal choice. She keeps all the notes (often misspells names and tends to somehow misunderstand what's happening in the game - I have to peek at the notes from time to time to correct those mistakes). She likes to roleplay and play in general, but lacks initiative and inspiration. The most problematic player in my opinion, because she has a lot of potential but doesn't know how to tap it.

The duergar player is a freshman in rpg's, playing no more than 2-3 years now. He is very shy, lacks interpersonal skills, but tries really hard nonetheless. He has an overall idea about his character but again, no detail, no real background (mercenary, caravan destroyed, sticks with the group to survive for now).

When the next game wraps up (or via email or phone calls if you prefer), "Hey guys, next session, I want a piece of paper with 3 things your character wants on it. Could be a magic item, a career goal, a personal vengence/I want so-an-so dead...whatever. But 3 things each your character wants, next session."

This is more-less what I was thinking about, then proceeded with the plan and failed miserably, as the players couldn't really think of anything. Except the Shar cleric and to some extent the goblin cleric.

My players are out of touch with their characters. I do not know how to fix it.

They all like our game sessions, I see them try hard...and hit the wall.

 

[steeldragons]

Well, we had an internal conflict which resulted in two players - a guy and his girlfriend, leaving the group.

-snip-

...but about half of the group is adamant in breaking all contact with them, believing nothing has changed. They are propably right, though

Ooooh keee. So it's not about gettin' the old players back.

Indeed, the original idea was to play a cold hearted, evil, backstabbing, cruel and vile party. It didn't work out, as most of the players didn't want to ruin their friends' fun, but the races and surroundings remained.

However, most of the players chose to stick to their initial character, but try to play "smart evil" not "chaotic stupid".

Well, this is "nice" and all...but why didn't they think about that before choosing to play cold-hearted, etc etc. If they are unwilling to DO that, then I'm back at my original "Change the party" stance.

The goblin cleric is LN, the drow necromancer is slowly going from CN to N, the cleric of Shar is NE (as in selfish and cold hearted but not vile and cruel) and the duergar is LE.

So far they have a set of individual goals and they need each other's help to fulfill them. All of these goals were my ideas, without any input from the players themselves.

Hmmm. So is there any discord arising from being told what their goals are? Is the "I don't know what to do with my character" because they really don't know or because they assume they don't have to because you will simply give them something to do?

I MIGHT suggest, "playing hardball" to test this bit of theory. DO NOT, under any circumstances, give them stuff to do. Describe where they are, or were at the end of the last game....and wait...and wait...and wait. SOMEone in the group will have to eventually give you something they do or someplace they go.

When they accomplish something....don't give them something else to do...MAKE them find their way to their next adventure themselves...If this means 3 or 4 sessions of them lingering around the closest town waiting for something to happen...so be it.

They'll get the hint to start making their own destinies...or they will come to the realization that they can retire these characters.

Again, if noone is willing to take the reigns, then there doesn't seem to be anywhere for this pony to go. Dump the characters and start fresh.

The human cleric's player is a very deep roleplayer, clever strategist and an experienced gamer with strong ideas about his character - the background, details, history and some personal goals.

So HE can (or most likely would) give them stuff to do. They'd be HIS goals. haha. But it wouldn't be on your shoulders to supply for the whole party. There's also the fun role-playing opportunities when someone in the party balks..."Why are we always just following what you want?"

The goblin player is also experienced, but he is not a brilliant person, not saying he's stupid or something, but prone to acting before thinking and very emotional about many things. This caused some really good laughs and lightens the mood, but also tends to irritate other people at times. His favorite spell is a maximized flamestrike...

'kay. Sounds fun. But I am a bit confused how you have 2 experienced players (one with extensive backstory, etc) who are not "into their characters enough" to tell you what their goals are.

The drow necromancer is -snip-, also an experienced player, -snip- but lacks initiative and inspiration. The most problematic player in my opinion, because she has a lot of potential but doesn't know how to tap it.

Are the experienced players unwilling or unable to offer her some guidance?

That said, given the lack of initiative and inspiration, I see no issue here. She will be content to simply be a follower and do whatever it is the party "leader(s)" decides they should do....She may or she may not, over time, realize that she wants something more for her character...at which point you, and most likely, the whole party will hear about it. Til then...just let her follow.

The duergar player is a freshman in rpg's, playing no more than 2-3 years now. He is very shy, lacks interpersonal skills, but tries really hard nonetheless. He has an overall idea about his character but again, no detail, no real background (mercenary, caravan destroyed, sticks with the group to survive for now).

I'd hardly consider someone with 2 years playing a "freshman". If he has any sort of intelligence, then he's smart enough to come up with some stuff his character wants...or does he just play to "kill things and take their stuff"?...which actually, is pretty much what duergar are all about anyway. haha.

Again, let him "follow" til he doesn't want to anymore. But make sure, with this one, he doesn't just quietly remove himself from the table cuz he thinks its all about someone else.

This is more-less what I was thinking about, then proceeded with the plan and failed miserably, as the players couldn't really think of anything. Except the Shar cleric and to some extent the goblin cleric.

I really don't understand how anyone giving themselves a week (how long in between play sessions for you guys? I'm assuming a week) to think about this would come up blank. The logical answer is, they simply didn't give it any thought.

If you have ideas from the clerics, then I say run with it. Again the role-playing opportunity will kick in at some point when someone sez, "HEY! How come we're always doing what the clerics want? I want to <insert personal character goal here>." Then let them hash it out.

My players are out of touch with their characters. I do not know how to fix it.

They all like our game sessions, I see them try hard...and hit the wall.

Truly, I feel badly for you. But I'm not sure what else to tell you. I don't think there's any way for you to MAKE a player develop/deepen their character...without writing it yourself for them...and honestly if you have to do that, why have players?

Which, again, leaves the option of "Scrap 'em n' make new characters." They don't care, they're willing to "just go along with it" then they can "just go along" with rolling up someone new they will be excited about.

OR, as I said, follow up on the leads you WERE given and let the followers come into their own in their own time...or not!

As long as they're having fun (and you claim they are), really, who cares?

If it is making it frustrating or boring for you...then that's another problem. The game needs to be fun for everybody. It is (or rather, should be) a give/take between the DM and the players with both parties getting what they need for a fun gaming experience.

If you aren't getting that, then you can never go wrong with an honest mature sit down discussion of your needs and expectations as the DM.

...that's all I got. Good luck.
--Steel Dragons

 

[DumbPaladin]

I really agree with steeldragons. This sounds like a situation where starting with new characters -- but not necessarily at level 1, perhaps let the players create characters at the current level they're at, if higher than 1st -- could be a better way to form cohesion from the start.

If for some reason the group simply does not wish to start new characters (but why wouldn't they, given what led to their current predicament?), then I'd recommend writing an adventure or two as the NEXT thing you do which will force the party to decide exactly why they're working together, and what they're working TOWARDS.

Do they want to conquer their home city? The nation? The world? Become demigods of evil? Do they honestly want to reform? If they don't know, then force them to pick by providing a plot that will require character morality decisions via actions.

Possible example: A newer, slightly badder, evil moves into their home turf and takes over, killing some high-ranking leaders, the nice old lady in the market square, the milkmaid, her young boyfriend the paladin's squire -- oh yah and the paladin too, and imprisoning almost every other do-gooder in the town.

This is immediately a problem. They could choose to move to a new town -- at which point the New Evil takes over that town too (expansion, you know -- much easier when no one is opposing them). Perhaps the next time they try to leave, they're disallowed from doing so, by force.

They could choose to try and liberate the city, making them unlikely yet genuine antiheroes. This would be an easy route for you to adjudicate.

They could decide THEY want to run the city, which will require defeating the new evil, and then enforcing their own brand of totalitarianism on the conquered city. If they go this route, not only will they now have to defend their new city against OTHER forces of evil attempting to squash them, but occasionally put down a de facto rebel force of The Powers of Good from the remaining town civilians. This could get fun.

 

[kitsune9]

That exactly is the problem. The players wont have any personal interest, until they have a reason to. And they wont have a reason to, if you don't force them one.

Yeah, this is my line of thinking too. Erevanden, you need to provide the players with a sense of identity. You can go about this several ways:

1. At the beginning of the campaign, you ask that the players develop a backstory as to how each of them know / respect each other. It then gives an origin to the group and the basis for them to adventure together other than "you all meet at a bar and the NPC comes to you with a quest". Together, they can also come up with a general goal as to why the group is together.

2. At the beginning of the campaign, you the DM provide the characters a sense of identity such as affiliation with a guild, a group, or a faction. It looks like you got an evil campaign going on there, so why are they working together? What's the common purpose? Is there some NPC that they all know who is driving them to do things out of fear or fanaticism? You can also make this happen in the midstream of the campaign by introducing it the element.

3. If your group is uncohesive, provide an element in the adventure that forces it together. The PC's will have a defining moment in which they must band together. There is a force greater than them and the only way to defeat it is to band together. There is an object that is the goal of the campaign to obtain and now the PC's have a purpose.

Here's what I've done in my campaigns:

1. In my current campaign, the PC's started out as prisoners accused for various crimes and scheduled to be executed; however, the duchess decided that they can earn their pardon by delving a ruined city. They were forced together because their fate was tied together.

2. In my previous campaign, the PC's all knew of a mutual NPC who came and hired each one of them to escort him to a ruin up in the hills. After an initial assault, the NPC commanded the PC's to explore the ruin while he went back to get help.

3. In an short evil campaign I played in, our PC's banded together because we belonged to the same faction in which we were driven by fear from a very powerful NPC to do his bidding. This did two things--it made us set aside our evil egos because feuding amongst ourselves only brought the wrath of the uber-NPC and it identified our desire to avoid failure in the quest itself (or risk the wrath of the uber-NPC).

 

[marli]

bribe them.(sort off)
keep treasure or cause them to loose it.
once you have accumulated enough...ask a question....take the answer an mold it into a prize/event
Where were you born?..bling towm...a messenger arrives, you have inherited X in blingtown but you have go and collect it. the messenger give them the held back money as a taster.

send thier character into the mind of an NPC, give them an objective they cant solve with out X item(make it really obvious)as soon as theymention the item, give it to them, from then on they can have what ever they request(item) use a swap out system(you only ever have one item). make a note of what they ask for.....they prob subconciosly want it for thier character.

 

[Console Cowboy]

Well, there is a cultural divide here, isn't there? While I agree with Steel Dragons' post, I also see where it may fail. I am a foreigner in Warsaw, Poland, running a bi-weekly game in English for internationals, and I know what it is like living in this culture. So I thought I would share my own observations. Your mileage may vary.

I assume you're Polish because there has been no update from you for weeks, and you're most definitely playing in Polish with Poles.... Perhaps the very people I know from the local hangouts like Paradox Cafe. So I have a sense of it all if not every answer.

In the parlance of D&D alignment, Poland is a Lawful Evil country. When I provide language conversation practice through the art of role playing, I run an initial getting to know you/your character questionnaire for non-RPG "students." This yields a Lawful Evil alignment result, invariably, to the players. Surprisingly, however, the players want to play different roles than the ones they are accustomed to play in real life. I don't know but they call it fantasy. LOL

Poles also have very - and I mean VERY - low initiative as a nation.
And you're running a kind of PvP featuring Monster races, but no one wants to pull the trigger on the other players. They have been good enough to even explain why to you.

The game is mirroring real life. You are also part of this equation. As the Game Master, no matter how you want to spin it by telling us about great story telling, world creation and all that: you currently suck. Your players are telling you this with their actions. That's straight talk GM to GM.

So #1. Play only with people you like to play with. Your group numbers will fall but the quality of your game will improve. It will also raise the standard bar for you as the GM. IF YOU DO NOT ENJOY THE GAME YOU MASTER, HOW DO YOU EXPECT YOUR PLAYERS TO ENJOY IT?

It is long past time to say good-bye to the disruptive players. Even if she has two nice assets on the table. If the guy is a mook you can't stand, he's gone. If someone is whinging and constantly bringing everyone down, she's gone. Do you actually look forward to your game with this crowd? You're not the only one who feels as you do, let me assure you.

Dropping non-productive players will get a reputation as a Game Master over time, and your small group will grow. I mentioned over time. You need to prove yourself.

#2 Get them off that Evil Campaign. They obviously do not want to play your world of darkness. You can still play drak fantasy but make the Pcs the heroes of that world. Players should be the heroes in your/their story and PCs live on their world not yours. George R R Martin's Game of Thrones has lots of darkness in it but the darkness is brought into the world by agents of evil not because the world is inherrently evil. Do you understand? Your PCs have no one to clearly identify as opponents. They do not want to fight against themselves - though that does seem to be what is happening at the gaming table. IMHO, reading your post, you've railroaded them from the get go. Do not be surprised if they are reacting like mindless zombies now.

Can I get a witness? This GM wants to grow. I applaud him for it.

Not only are your players predisposed to such behaviour in Poland but there IS a disconnect between them and their characters. Re-roll. Let them create PCs they want to play and on a world that fits their PCs. If you do not know what they want, have them re-roll and then take 3 weeks to create the local world that fits their PCs.

Don't do it the other way around is my advice. And you will enjoy the outcome, trust me. Trust your PCs because the ones that are boneheads will be gone (you will toss them) and the ones to keep will stay. And you will enjoy playing with those players. And you will play collaboratively.

Anyway, I can go on but I wont. I have outlined the very first thing to correct: your mindset. Steel Dragons has made some excellent suggestions to follow up on as well.

- Console Cowboy