Campaign Concern

[Ranes]

I would be interested in the views of other DMs with regard to a particular issue that is giving me some cause for concern in my new campaign.

About eight weeks ago, I started running my first 3E campaign. I have a lot of experience as a DM/ref in general but I've only been reading 3E since last spring. To my surprise, seven friends, all of whom have a reasonable amount of rpg playing experience, expressed an interest. The largest number of players I'd ever had to deal with before was six, and that was at a convention a long time ago. I knew it would be a challenge from the outset, keeping the game moving as rapidly as possible and keeping everyone involved throughout the session. Well, so far, everything has gone pretty well in that regard. I'm adapting to the environment so quickly, I didn't even get a headache during last Monday's session. Joy.

After the first couple of sessions, I had decided to transplant what had been an inconspicuously generic homebrew campaign seed to Greyhawk, as I needed to reduce the amount of time it was taking me to prepare. Again, this went smoothly. Welcome to the plains of Veluna, everyone.

The party of seven PCs started with first level characters rolled by me, from a choice of twelve core class/race combinations. To my surprise, one of the first things they did was hire an NPC (War1) from their village to join them. So, the party was now eight strong. Eek...

And here comes the problem; I'm having trouble designing suitable encounters for them. Allow me to illustrate: their first combat encounter was an ambush staged by eight rogues, one of whom was second level. The rogues had cover, concealment, surprise and some sneak attacks. They also had three thunderstones. They were too widely dispersed for the party's necromancer to colour spray effectively. I thought this would constitute a reasonable challenge. Early in the fight, one of the characters fell to below 0hp but, by the end of the third round, there was no doubt about the party's impending victory.

The second encounter that resulted in combat, though it needn't have, was with an earth mephit (in flight). When it all turned anti-social, this mephit succeeded in summoning another. Nevertheless, both mephits were soon forced to retreat from the party's assault. A run in with several giant ants went the same way and this week, the PCs utterly trounced a harpy using only their ranged weapons without even getting hit (please note the DM rolls were abysmal but I'm loath to fudge rolls at the best of times and even more so when I'm trying to get the measure of a system for the first time).

I took care to implement the mephits' DR and regeneration, the harpy's song, concealment, cover, creature feats like flyby attack and dodge, sensible creature tactics (within my interpetation of their intelligence) and other encounter conditions, such as visibility, for example. But I have, so far, failed to make the party feel threatened at any time. They have now, with the exception of their NPC companion, reached second level. The NPC is taking a full share of xp but he missed out on some, before he joined them. I have initiated a minor plot thread that will result in the NPC leaving the party soon but I want the players to feel that, when this happens, it is for reasons that have developed during the course of their adventure (which it is) and not because I'm trying to clip their wings - which I am not!

Soon, I want to incorporate the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil into the campaign (yep, that way around). Before then, however, I want to find the right encounter balance. If anyone has experience of running a low level game for a party this size and would care to share with me the benefit of their experience or have any advice they feel might help, I would be deeply grateful.

Thanks for reading.

 

[MerricB]

Games at low-level with big group tend to be a lot more random in encounter results. I run a group of six characters with occasionally 1 NPC at low levels, and I think it is impossible to be as balanced as with 4 characters.

Main points:

* More monsters, not tougher monsters: a Troll or Ogre might seem to be the right CR for extra characters, but when the monster can lay waste to a character with a single blow, things get very ugly.

* Different levels of monsters. A Bugbear with five goblins is better than two bugbears or ten goblins.

* Don't be afraid to let PCs die. I'm quite serious - at the lower levels it isn't going to matter quite as much, and will maintain a feeling of danger. Don't overdo it (TPKs aren't very good with 7 or 8 characters!), but allow the dice to fall where they will.

* It's well worthwhile splitting monsters into different groups and rolling more than one initiative. So, instead of 10 goblins all with the one initiative roll, split them into two or three groups and roll initiative for each.

Apart from that, I think you'll judge them better as they go along. The most I've ever run was 5 PCs and 4 cohorts at about the 10th-12th level of experience... I think that adventure ended with three deaths amongst the party. I added a couple of mid-level enemy fighters to one of the major encounters to make it more interesting. They didn't add to the challenge all that much, but did give something for other PCs to do.

Cheers!

 

[DDK]

CR is broken!

To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it too much. CR's, to me, are more of a hinderence than a rule to live by, or even a guide. There are too many factors that go into an appropriate challenge to use such an ill-thought out, barely managable, and totally inaccurate system such as the one presented in 3rd ed.

Go back to your 2nd ed. roots, if you have them, or just rely on your gut instinct as to what will be appropriate. You've already got the measure of them by the encounters you've chellenged them with thus far, so simply up the ante until you find a right balance. And if a party member or two dies because you put 'em up against something a little too powerful in your efforts to find the right mix, eh, serves 'em right for bein' so cocky and thinkin' they could get away with charging the dragon

 

[Frostmarrow]

It looks to me that you have found balance. The first encounter is no threat to an average party of adventurers. It's not before the second or third encounter in a string that things get really interesting. This means that minutes after the encounter with the rogues they could encounter yet another group of rogues -with a vengence. And then when they are licking their wounds hit them again with something else of the same power-level.

Perhaps you have only one combat encounter per day. This might suit your DM-style and general strategy of your group. Then you might up the ante a bit but remember that as the DM you can control the flow of an encouter by sending reinforcements to the opposition if things go to easy. You can also send reinforcements to help your players if you have over-compensated.

Also, if you are a good tactician, you can have the opposition make a fatal mistake if the PCs get in to more than they can handle. I usually glance at the monsters' int and wis when I'm about to win against the PCs. If it's low the monster makes a mistake. I.e. moves to a space where it easily can be flanked, spends one round drinking a healing potion instead of pressing on the attack, et c. If the monster has a high ego it might decide to use the advantage to talk to and hopefully learn something from the party.

I'd suggest that you teach your players the value of life as soon as possible. Have enemies show mercy on your players, have superiors tell the players they should show mercy too. Why, you might wonder? Because every NPC killed by the players is a loss to your world. If your players spare their adversaries they can always come back as friends or foes. It's not like they can prevent armed conflict by killing enemies anyway. Kill this NPC and another one will rear it's ugly head next week. However it's better for the campaign and the game world if NPCs are allowed to live and develop.

 

[Ranes]

Great advice from everyone. Thank you!

Frostmarrow, with regard to the 'value of life' lesson, indeed, the party spared three of the rogues from that first battle, turning them over to the authorities. One was the band's leader and I fully intend for him to return at a later date. As for hitting the party more than once per day, as it were, I ought to have mentioned that the mephit and harpy encounters occured on the same day but I take your point; successive encounters are the key to creating the challenge here.

MerricB, I was already thinking along the lines of your first bullet point but I like the others you raise and will definitely apply them to the next session and thereafter. Cheers.

And Fourecks, what can I say? I was nodding and grinning as I read your post.

Thanks again for these helpful suggestions.

 

[WayneLigon]

Just remember that all the CR's are calculated for a party of four people. An encounter should drain a certain amount of resources from them, but not always; luck of the dice can always change things.

 

[Ranes]

Noted. And the dice haven't made assessing the PCs' ability to overcome the encounters presented thus far any easier. In a couple of cases, there have been good PC dice rolls followed by bad DM dice rolls.

At least all the players are happy with the game so far. I'm just trying to hit the mark when it comes to the players feeling challenged and threatened without going too far. As always, the extremes that I'm trying to steer clear of are the onset of player boredom as their PCs waltz through the adventure at one end of the scale, and unjustifiable TPK at the other.

 

[Henry]

Are you using mats and mini's? I am assuming so, since a combat with 16 opponents or more planned in your head is gonna get nasty.

Second, the best way to plan is not by CR, but by Encounter Level. Reread the section in the DMG about Encounter Level, and experience awards generated. If dealing with such a large party, the encounter level for the party needs to be beefed up.

The best way is proabably to gauge the EL of the party itself. To do this, take the average party level to equal the EL, and add +1 to this with every doubling of the forces' size. Eight level 1 characters = 1 doubled (+1 EL) + doubled again (+1 EL) + doubled again (+1 EL) to equal roughly the challenge of an EL4 encounter themselves! Again, this is a rough estimate, and I'm sure someone has a better way of doing it, but it makes sense when figuring out what needs to challenge your group.

If you want a challenging but survivable encounter (like the equal CR described in the DMG) with the party, (assuming your characters are all level 8) then you need to design an encounter that is about EL 4. Encounter Levels (EL) take into account numbers of combatants regardless of CR, as well as advantages due to surprise or ambush, or environment. So, that party of rogues probably needed to be level 1's, with two to three level 2's, and also ambush plans.

If you want a challenging encounter (with about a 50/50 sucess rate), then EL needs to be in the 5 to 6 range. (about 2 above.) BUT DON'T DO IT with higher powered creatures. Instead, as you did, make more creatures, and either give a few of them levels or advantages to make up for it.

 

[Drawmack]

CR is calculated based on a mythical party of four adventurers cleric, rogue, fighter, wizard.

Here is how I adjust for larger/smaller parties so far is has worked with a party of 2,3,6 & 7

Core Rules party level is the total of all members levels divided by number of members (tl/nm)

I adjust this by subtracting four from the party members, dividing by two rounding up and then adding this to the party level. ceiling((nm-4)/2)

So my final formula is (tl/nm) + ceiling((nm-4)/2)

Minimum party level is 1/(1+4-nm).

For all first level with party sizes of 2,3,6 & 7 this formula becomes.

2) (2/2) + ceiling((2-4)/2) = 1 + ceiling(-2/2) = 1 - 1 = 0 (adjust to 1/3)
3) (3/3) + ceiling((3-4)/2) = 1 + ceiling(-1/2) = 1 - 1 = 0 (adjust to 1/2)
6) (6/6) + ceiling((6-4)/2) = 1 + ceiling (2/2) = 1+1 = 2
7) (7/7) + ceiling((7-4)/2) = 1 + ceiling (3/2) = 1+2 = 3

It might seem a bit skewed to say that CR is for a part of four then to increase CR by 1 for every other member that is added to the group but refer to the EL chart in the DMG for an explaination.

 

[Forrester]

Allow me to illustrate: their first combat encounter was an ambush staged by eight rogues, one of whom was second level. The rogues had cover, concealment, surprise and some sneak attacks. They also had three thunderstones. They were too widely dispersed for the party's necromancer to colour spray effectively. I thought this would constitute a reasonable challenge. Early in the fight, one of the characters fell to below 0hp but, by the end of the third round, there was no doubt about the party's impending victory.

I confess that I'm VERY surprised by this. In a situation like this, the rogues would naturally use all of their sneak attacks against one or two foes -- probably the buffest fighter type, and maybe a mage. Did they just roll really poorly? Or did you foolishly have each rogue attack a different party member?

Did the rogues use a lot of flanking maneuvers after they lost the element of surprise? And again, make sure to gang up on party members?