Campaign Conundrum 3 - Bull Rushing

[Archade]

Here's another one for you guys:

My PCs were battling an enemy who cast displacement on himself. So, the party fighter bull rushed him. Bull rush doesn't require an attack roll, so he was able to drive the enemy back, regardless of the fact he had 50% concealment. Does that seem right?

(Have you noticed my players are oh so clever? My head hurts...)

 

[reveal]

Here's another one for you guys:

My PCs were battling an enemy who cast displacement on himself. So, the party fighter bull rushed him. Bull rush doesn't require an attack roll, so he was able to drive the enemy back, regardless of the fact he had 50% concealment. Does that seem right?

(Have you noticed my players are oh so clever? My head hurts...)

A bull rush, one that is not part of a charge at least, is considered an attack. it would have the same miss chance as any other attack against concealment.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I would give the victim of the bull rush a 20 (rather than 50%) miss chance. There's still a chance the PC will miss him (clipping his coat or something) and go smashing into a brick wall, into a pit, through a window where you can look down and see clouds, etc.

 

[Scion]

Bullrush is just moving into your opponents space and trying to force them to move somewhere.

As such, if there is no reason to give the 50% miss chance that I have missed, I would likely make the player roll the 50% chance. If the bullrusher makes the check then no problem, if they fail it then the bullrushee gets a +4 on their rolls to resist. Mainly from the aggressive party setting themselves up for one position while the target was actually somewhere else. Over/underbalanced and such.

Note that a similar problem happens with mirror image

 

[reveal]

Bullrush is just moving into your opponents space and trying to force them to move somewhere.

As such, if there is no reason to give the 50% miss chance that I have missed, I would likely make the player roll the 50% chance. If the bullrusher makes the check then no problem, if they fail it then the bullrushee gets a +4 on their rolls to resist. Mainly from the aggressive party setting themselves up for one position while the target was actually somewhere else. Over/underbalanced and such.

Note that a similar problem happens with mirror image

From the SRD

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge

It's not just moving into the square, that's simply what you physically do. It's still an attack.

 

[Scion]

I dont see anything about an attack roll that can be missed however:

BULL RUSH
You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)
Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

it is an attack in that if you do it then you will no longer be invisible, but there is no attack roll to 'miss' with.

you simply enter their square, take your aoos, and make an opposed str check.

 

[VorpalStare]

The 50% miss chance from displacement should apply. Bull Rush is an attack that does not require an attack roll (just an opposed strength check), and thus is subject to the 50% miss chance all attacks have when targeting a displaced opponent. Treat it as having an attack roll that automatically hits.

Unfortunately, the rules for Bull Rush don't anticipate the possibility that the attacker can miss, so that requires adjudication. If the attack misses, I recommend using the equivalent rules for Overrun (which uses almost identical rules) as if the target avoided the attack.

The AC of the target is irrelevent, whether it's a displaced dwarf or a displaced gnat with a touch AC of 50.

This is one of the areas that I don't think the game developers put much thought into, so use your own judgement.

 

[werk]

Bullrush starts by saying you can bullrush as an attack or as part of a charge (attack), so I think it is an attack and should be subject to the 50% miss chance...but what do you apply it to...the STR check? That doesn't seem right either.

SRD_Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance.

Since you can only attack the square he occupies, which is not a valid target for bullrush (it clearly states opponent), I would say they are unable to bullrush the (totally concealed) opponent at all.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Since you can only attack the square he occupies, which is not a valid target for bullrush (it clearly states opponent), I would say they are unable to bullrush the (totally concealed) opponent at all.

That's not quite true. Displacement is a little different from actual total concealment because you can still target the enemy with Targeted spells, without any chance of failure (due to missing anyway). If you can target him with a hold person, an attack, I see no reason why you can't 'target him' with a bull rush, another attack.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Concealment miss chance doesn't apply if there is no attack roll.

Now, I'll see if I can back that up with actual rules quotes.