Campaign Design Questions - *My Players Stay Out!*

[DarrenGMiller]

My current campaign has hit the halfway point and will probably be finished by December, since I have no desire to run very far if at all into epic levels. By virtue of my work schedule, I am going to have SIGNIFICANTLY less free time VERY soon, so I have started trying to figure out what I want to do next. My group will have 5-7 players and we will probably alternate DM's about every month or so (I have never done that before, as I have always been the only DM, but due to people moving out of the area, we will probably be rolling two gaming groups into one in about a month, so I will give the other DM time to run) and the other DM will run Shackled City. The idea is to run published adventures (or basically published adventures, as mine tend to get heavily altered) and alternate one adventure from his campaign, then one from mine. He is just finishing RttToEE with his group and below is a list of the campaigns I have run with mine (we overlap some players already) since 3E was released:
1. Greyhawk - set in the Free City and Cairn Hills 2000-2002
2. Psuedo-Celtic Homebrew 2002-2003
3. Swashbuckling - did not last long 2003
4. D20 Modern Horror - mix of X-Files and Stephen King's Dark Tower, etc. 2003-2004
5. Swashbuckling - did not last long 2004
6. Greyhawk - vs. demon lords, "classic feel", set in Sheldomar Valley to Sterich 2005

1, 2, 4 & 6 were very successful and lasted a year or more (6 will be about a year), while the players mever quite got the feel I was going for in 3 & 5. All the character concepts were to independent to have any reason to work together.

Here is my thought for campaign #7:

I would like to run a dark fantasy campaign using altered published adventures, with a late medevial setting circa 1300's-1500's feel. It would be fantasy all the way, with no firearms, but lighter armor predominant, the beginnings of a medical profession (not just magical healing) with hospitals and asylums, gaols in place of castle dungeon for criminals (some in asylums too), etc. The tone would be Lovecraft, Poe, Doyle, gothic influenced. I have an "adventure path" sketched out already.

My questions:

1. I feel like I am mixing genres with the gothic horror/Cthulhu feel, but with D&D characters and action. I definitely want it to be recognizable D&D, not CoC or WoD feeling. What do you think?

2. Has anyone done anything like this before? What were the results/player reaction?

3. Can I do it without seeming derivitive of Ravenloft?

4. I want to be episodic due to loss of continuity through alternating DM's. What do you think about an episodic campaign, where travel from adventure to adventure is summarized out of session?

5. I want the PC's to be recognizable good guys in a very gritty, pulpish world. For example, I plan on using Dungeon adventures like The Styes, Death of Lashimire and Tears for Twilight Hollow. I plan on giving the players some generic character types to customize, so that the PC's will fit the setting (see swashbuckling above). Has anyone done this? What problems would a Paladin be in this type of game?

6. While it is gritty and dark, I do not want it to feel hopeless. The PC's are a beacon of light and I want their actions to make a small difference. They would be like the jaded, but gold-hearted pulp detective type ("It was a dark and stormy night."). Can this work?

7. I am an experienced DM, but always open to suggestions. Do you have any general suggestions that might help?

8. What do you think about using variant rules in this game, such as Defense Bonus, Grim & Gritty or Wounds/Vitality, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

DM

 

[Khairn]

Here is my thought for campaign #7:

I would like to run a dark fantasy campaign using altered published adventures, with a late medevial setting circa 1300's-1500's feel. It would be fantasy all the way, with no firearms, but lighter armor predominant, the beginnings of a medical profession (not just magical healing) with hospitals and asylums, gaols in place of castle dungeon for criminals (some in asylums too), etc. The tone would be Lovecraft, Poe, Doyle, gothic influenced. I have an "adventure path" sketched out already.

My questions:

1. I feel like I am mixing genres with the gothic horror/Cthulhu feel, but with D&D characters and action. I definitely want it to be recognizable D&D, not CoC or WoD feeling. What do you think?

I think its a great concept, and can definately be done. Have you checked out Arcanna Unearthed, particularly the Akashic class? Some of the AU classes could work for you.

2. Has anyone done anything like this before? What were the results/player reaction?

3. Can I do it without seeming derivitive of Ravenloft?

Yes I've done something like this and Ravenloft was its name. Is there a reason why you dont want to use Ravenloft?
If the "Mists" are something you dont want, then just have use the details from one of the realms and spread it across your campaign setting. Ravenloft has some fantastic support and very flavorful supplements for the GM and players.

4. I want to be episodic due to loss of continuity through alternating DM's. What do you think about an episodic campaign, where travel from adventure to adventure is summarized out of session?

I've never had a problem with that, and am using it in my Eberron game. The players like it as it speeds up the game, and from a GM's standpoint the only tricky part is ending a nights session at the moment when travel is the next step.

5. I want the PC's to be recognizable good guys in a very gritty, pulpish world. For example, I plan on using Dungeon adventures like The Styes, Death of Lashimire and Tears for Twilight Hollow. I plan on giving the players some generic character types to customize, so that the PC's will fit the setting (see swashbuckling above). Has anyone done this? What problems would a Paladin be in this type of game?

Aside from the Paladin being a bloody beacon (i.e. target) in an otherwise dark and dangerous world I think there shouldn't be any real problem. Having a paladin or any class with a high ethical standard that they uphold would appear to make them stand out in the setting you are describing.

6. While it is gritty and dark, I do not want it to feel hopeless. The PC's are a beacon of light and I want their actions to make a small difference. They would be like the jaded, but gold-hearted pulp detective type ("It was a dark and stormy night."). Can this work?

Just make certain that the players have the necessary motivation for rising above the darkness that is around them. I've found that my players morals tend to fall to the lowest common denominator in whatever setting they are adventuring. In a dark and gritty world they may very well become more like a violent Batman rather than a noble Captain America.

7. I am an experienced DM, but always open to suggestions. Do you have any general suggestions that might help?

8. What do you think about using variant rules in this game, such as Defense Bonus, Grim & Gritty or Wounds/Vitality, etc.?

Providing Class Def Bonuses will help reduce the need for heavy armor. Grim & Gritty is a deadly set of rules that in my experience has a dramatic effect on the play style. Wounds & Vitality are a great way to simulate the easy battles against the low level enforcers, while making the climactic battle against the evil mastermind something that they need to be very wary of.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

Yes I've done something like this and Ravenloft was its name. Is there a reason why you dont want to use Ravenloft?
If the "Mists" are something you dont want, then just have use the details from one of the realms and spread it across your campaign setting. Ravenloft has some fantastic support and very flavorful supplements for the GM and players.

I just don't want the stereotypical Ravenloft. I don't want Ravenloft cosmology or Darklords, etc. I think you told me what I want later in your reply, so I will address that below.

Aside from the Paladin being a bloody beacon (i.e. target) in an otherwise dark and dangerous world I think there shouldn't be any real problem. Having a paladin or any class with a high ethical standard that they uphold would appear to make them stand out in the setting you are describing.

Just make certain that the players have the necessary motivation for rising above the darkness that is around them. I've found that my players morals tend to fall to the lowest common denominator in whatever setting they are adventuring. In a dark and gritty world they may very well become more like a violent Batman rather than a noble Captain America.

Actually, couldn't Batman be this type of world's Paladin? I like that analogy. I am kind of looking at it that way now. The setting would be similar to Gotham (but not all city). I like that idea better than Ravenloft. I have run Ravenloft before (in 1E, both the adventures and the world itself) and I don't want the "demi-plane of dread" feel. I want a world that has seen a lot of bad things and has a lot of bad people, but there are heroes that can make small differences.

Thanks for the suggestions. Keep them coming!

DM

 

[Khairn]

One thing to keep in mind is the over-all theme of the setting.

Core D&D, with alignment based characters, alignment detecting spells and dependant special abilities (smite evil) has a tendancy to create a very black / white setting. What you are describing seems much more "grey" in flavor.

How are you planning on handling the alignment issue for this new setting?

 

[BiggusGeekus]

1. I feel like I am mixing genres with the gothic horror/Cthulhu feel, but with D&D characters and action. I definitely want it to be recognizable D&D, not CoC or WoD feeling. What do you think?

I don't think this will be a problem unless your group is made up of avid CoC/WoD players. Even then, I imagine they'll be happy rather than sad to see everything all gothy.

2. Has anyone done anything like this before? What were the results/player reaction?

I haven't.

3. Can I do it without seeming derivitive of Ravenloft?

Who cares? So what if it's a little (or a lot) derivative? Even if your players call it "Wolf70enloft", it's still your game.

4. I want to be episodic due to loss of continuity through alternating DM's. What do you think about an episodic campaign, where travel from adventure to adventure is summarized out of session?

Definately summerize or your players will forget where they left off. Just don't go heavy on the subtle plot points, because they'll have a hard time keeping up with them.

5. I want the PC's to be recognizable good guys in a very gritty, pulpish world. For example, I plan on using Dungeon adventures like The Styes, Death of Lashimire and Tears for Twilight Hollow. I plan on giving the players some generic character types to customize, so that the PC's will fit the setting (see swashbuckling above). Has anyone done this? What problems would a Paladin be in this type of game?

I'd eliminate the Paladin and the Monk as possible character choices. I'd add in other classes to make up for it. Maybe the Hexblade? What books to you have access to?

6. While it is gritty and dark, I do not want it to feel hopeless. The PC's are a beacon of light and I want their actions to make a small difference. They would be like the jaded, but gold-hearted pulp detective type ("It was a dark and stormy night."). Can this work?

Neeeaauuuugh. Um. OK. Yes. It can. With effort. The real question is that do you want your setting to be truly gritty or do you want it to be more like the movie Van Helsing? You are walking a fine line here and you're doing it while the PCs are going to be in the other DMs relative happyland of Shackled City. Personally? I'm not one for walking fine lines when the group doesn't get to play regularly. But that's just me.

7. I am an experienced DM, but always open to suggestions. Do you have any general suggestions that might help?

Bring beverages that Eric's grandma would not approve of. Roll all dice in the open, but scale the combats a little under where they "should" be. The PCs will have an edge, but it will be made clear that you aren't going to fudge for them. In a meta-game sense this will convey the "gritty" part of the setting without the insane asylums (though you should have those too!)

8. What do you think about using variant rules in this game, such as Defense Bonus, Grim & Gritty or Wounds/Vitality, etc.?

If they only get light armor then I would definately give them some kind of AC boost. I like Wounds/Vitality with the exception that critical hits do not take off of wounds. So Vitality Points act exactly like Hit Points do in a normal game. But Wound Points is where the real hurting begins.

 

[Nareau]

1. I feel like I am mixing genres with the gothic horror/Cthulhu feel, but with D&D characters and action. I definitely want it to be recognizable D&D, not CoC or WoD feeling. What do you think?

I'm trying to think of gives D&D that distinct flavor. I think a big part of it is the heroism. CoC and WoD are designed to show the PC's just how naive it is to think that the world can become a better place. In those games, the best you can hope for is to forestall the destruction of all humanity for a few years. But D&D is all about preventing the end of the world altogether.

2. Has anyone done anything like this before? What were the results/player reaction?

Our group used to do quite a bit of horror-gaming. But we've shied away from it in recent years. It just got too depressing.

3. Can I do it without seeming derivitive of Ravenloft?

Absolutely! I don't much like Ravenloft...I'm not sure why. But it's a pretty specific kind of horror (undead heavy), and easily avoidable.

4. I want to be episodic due to loss of continuity through alternating DM's. What do you think about an episodic campaign, where travel from adventure to adventure is summarized out of session?

I'm a big fan of the uber-plot. But I'm trying to push my game into a more easily digestible, episodic format. I also like role-playing the occasional, "So, you decide to make camp for the night...what do you do?" I find that sometimes just getting the PC's to talk to one another can lead to some really interesting things.

5. I want the PC's to be recognizable good guys in a very gritty, pulpish world. For example, I plan on using Dungeon adventures like The Styes, Death of Lashimire and Tears for Twilight Hollow. I plan on giving the players some generic character types to customize, so that the PC's will fit the setting (see swashbuckling above). Has anyone done this? What problems would a Paladin be in this type of game?

See swashbuckling above? You mean, the swashbuckling game that didn't go over so well? Instead of forcing the players into pre-conceived characters, I'd just give them some guidelines. For example: "All PC's must know one another very well, and be willing to trust each other with their lives. During character generation, come up with 2 or 3 very firm moral convictions that your PC is unwavering on. Write up a page on your immediately family, lovers, living situation, profession, etc." This will help bring the characters together in a solid group, and give you plenty of hooks to bring them into the campaign world.

6. While it is gritty and dark, I do not want it to feel hopeless. The PC's are a beacon of light and I want their actions to make a small difference. They would be like the jaded, but gold-hearted pulp detective type ("It was a dark and stormy night."). Can this work?

I think so. But beware of the "one-step-forward-two-steps-back" temptation in horror games. It's always tempting to have the BBEG burn down an orphanage while the PC's are off rescuing kittens. When the PC's succeed, let them shine. Furthermore, I'd recommend having them work towards a world-changing goal over the course of the campaign. That will let them see some real progress from their actions.

7. I am an experienced DM, but always open to suggestions. Do you have any general suggestions that might help?

Go read A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. I've only read pieces of it, but it's the first place I'd look if I wanted to run any kind of medieval-type game.

Think about how and when the world went all wrong. Was it a single event, like the Gates of Hell opening? Or did it take longer, like a plague? Or are they in the midst of everything going wrong? How do people view this change? Who's taken advantage of it? Who's suffering the most?

What would it take to set things right? Is this something the PC's can do in their lifetimes?

It sounds like a great basis for a campaign. I'm eager to hear some details.

Spider

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think it's a cool idea. I've had the idea of doing something very similar, set in the real world circa 1500, Early Rennaissance meets Cthulhu. There was an Elizabeth-thulhu setting that was going to come out, but it got cancelled.

Are you thinking "real world" setting, or a published or homebrew D&D world set in a late medieval time frame?

 

[DarrenGMiller]

One thing to keep in mind is the over-all theme of the setting.

Core D&D, with alignment based characters, alignment detecting spells and dependant special abilities (smite evil) has a tendancy to create a very black / white setting. What you are describing seems much more "grey" in flavor.

How are you planning on handling the alignment issue for this new setting?

I actually DO want my good guys to be discernibly good and bad guys discernibly bad, just not to the point that they are caricatures (which is one of the faults of Ravenloft IMO). There will be lots of Neutral alignments in positions of authority.

DM

 

[DarrenGMiller]

I don't think this will be a problem unless your group is made up of avid CoC/WoD players. Even then, I imagine they'll be happy rather than sad to see everything all gothy.

I have one potential player who is an avid CoC/WoD player, but I don't want him to take the game too dark if he plays. I don't want PC's to have morality conflicts, ie. "feel the pull of the dark side." He tends to play that way though and usually ends up turning a little darker than I want a hero to be.

Definately summerize or your players will forget where they left off. Just don't go heavy on the subtle plot points, because they'll have a hard time keeping up with them.

I summarize everything weekly on my webpage no matter the campaign.

I'd eliminate the Paladin and the Monk as possible character choices. I'd add in other classes to make up for it. Maybe the Hexblade? What books to you have access to?

I understand the Monk being cut. I have access to pretty much everything WoTC and some 3rd party.

Neeeaauuuugh. Um. OK. Yes. It can. With effort. The real question is that do you want your setting to be truly gritty or do you want it to be more like the movie Van Helsing? You are walking a fine line here and you're doing it while the PCs are going to be in the other DMs relative happyland of Shackled City. Personally? I'm not one for walking fine lines when the group doesn't get to play regularly. But that's just me.

I have never seen Van Helsing. Should I? We would play an adventure, then the other DM would get an adventure. That is one of my reasons for the episodic nature. Also, due to work schedules, some players show up every other or every third week as it is.



Thanks for the helpful comments and feedback!

DM

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I have never seen Van Helsing. Should I?

Yes, in the sense that I think it may have the tone you are looking for.

No, in the sense that it is a very bad movie.