Campaigns destroyed by catering to whims…

[Bendris Noulg]

Often those two things are one and the same in the eyes of the player. I've heard all sorts of arguments on why I'm a bad DM for not allowing a certain character concept into one of my campaigns. When the players stop showing up, I will start asking myself what I'm doing wrong. As it is, I have to turn players away because I have just too many of them who want into my campaigns.

Hrmm...I guess I've done okay then.

An anecdote of my own: A DM (who allowed anything in his game) permitting a player with an Antipaladin (3E=Blackguard) to disguise himself as a Cleric of St. Cuthbert and (eventually) betray the entire party.

I've got more, but I can sum it up briefly: Every game I've been in where the DM permitted the Players to pick-and-choose whatever they wished have all sucked! Enough so that if I'm invited to a game and there are no clear in-or-out parameters established by the GM, my Bad Game Alert(tm) immediately fires up (and it's never been wrong).

Sure, as a GM I'm always open to Players bringing me stuff and asking if I would permit it; I tend to home-brew Prestige Classes to target campaign-flavor niches, but Feats, Skills, and Spells are always welcome. And I would hope for similar in a GM. However, a Player that doesn't like "no" for an answer (and even more for those that don't think they are obligated to ask the GM at all) can take a hike.

This isn't a matter of being a power-tripper GM or some such. Rather, it's an obligation to myself to have as much fun as the Players, not less or more. If the campaign isn't one I enjoy running, than why should I run it? Sure, Players deserve to have fun, else why would they play? But in the overall view of things, I'm better off with players that accept the parameters of the game world I enjoy running (i.e., we have similar expectations from the genre), while a player interested in another set of parameters is better off looking for a game closer to his tastes. I guarantee, in the end, we'll all have more fun, which (last time I checked) is a good thing.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Campaigns destroyed by catering to whims…

Catering to the players whims and wants will eventually ruining any half way decent campaign and I speak from experince!

Ok Eric here is a few reasons I have the core or door policy. Or will gladly accept bribes of books for my collection.


The evil mage who no one knew was evil.
Player wanted to use the Complete Elf book. He gave me photo copies of what he said was all the necessary info. Forgetting the max stat page. So he is running around with an elf with the best int in the party a 19. And that was just the beginning. This became one player we never called if we were gaming.

So in other words the player wasn't someone you'd want to game with anyway.

And beyond that - how exactly does a 19 int in 2nd ed matter one little bit? Oooh, scary, he's smart.

The Power up Paladin player. I forget the splat book but he loaned the book to me 3 days before the game. I was not able to cover all and told him so. Now one of my house rules is a new character has full normal gear and 3 CLW potions. All other magic depends on the adventure. The paladin automatically gets full field plate AC 1 in second Ac 19 in third. Spells at second level. Still no problem. He levels up to third and automatically summons a +5 holy avenger. In the middle of combat. He didn’t think I should be mad because it was listed in the splat book. Forgetting they are in a poor dunk town. Hundreds of miles away from his temple. And the other paladins imc were happy to get their holy avengers at seventh level.

So what's the problem here? Was this a feature of the class he took? If you knew he was taking the class, how difficult would it be to read that bit?

The magic missle machine gun mage. Think of the mac ten with a magic missle wand in the clip. No problem because the other four dms allow it. Not one mention the drawback. So the pcs hoping in and out of worlds. In one campaign they are slaying dragons at fifth level. My campaign was not set up for it. Oh the drawback I discovered while under a different dm. The percentage chance of backfire is equal to the number of missles shot off 0-20. This was how many months of them mowing down monsters imc.

Once again, this is a problem with the player. And plane-hopping characters from campaign to campaign NEVER works.

None of these are problems with the splatbooks. They're problems with players who are willing to cheat. They're problems with a GM who's not willing to read rules. They're problems that seem to stem primarily from a clash between player and GM expectations.

 

[Orius]

Campaigns destroyed by catering to whims…

Ok Eric here is a few reasons I have the core or door policy. Or will gladly accept bribes of books for my collection.


The evil mage who no one knew was evil.
Player wanted to use the Complete Elf book. He gave me photo copies of what he said was all the necessary info. Forgetting the max stat page. So he is running around with an elf with the best int in the party a 19. And that was just the beginning. This became one player we never called if we were gaming.

[snip]

I follow a similar approach. As I've said before, I run an online game. I try to go light on house rules, it's far to much of a pain in the ass communicating house rules by e-mail and pointing prospective players to web site loaded with pages of house rules. Keeping it close to core, or at least official WotC products, makes it easier for me to run, but it also deprives it of developing a unique flavor all its own. That has its downsides, but it also makes it a little easier for new players to ease into the group. I've generally steered away from third-party d20 products becuase I have no idea how available they are to my players, and thus how much use they will be in my campaign.

As it is, I do have webpages that list some basic Rule #0 info for my campaign, and that includes allowed books and allowed material from some books. It's really sort of a list of what options I'll allow. I always point recruits to that page, but it's obvious many don't read it. Some also ask if I'll allow stuff that isn't listed as allowed, at which point I'll say no, and then I never hear from them again. It's fairly annoying. But I keep a fairly firm leash on what's allowed in my campaign, and if I don't have the rulebook to verify, you simply can't use it IMC. I don't know who might lie to me about the rules, and argue with me about rules that are unfamiliar later. And this applies to everyone. I don't want to play favorites or look like I'm playing favorites, because that's no good.

 

[Orius]

The magic missle machine gun mage. Think of the mac ten with a magic missle wand in the clip. No problem because the other four dms allow it. Not one mention the drawback. So the pcs hoping in and out of worlds. In one campaign they are slaying dragons at fifth level. My campaign was not set up for it. Oh the drawback I discovered while under a different dm. The percentage chance of backfire is equal to the number of missles shot off 0-20. This was how many months of them mowing down monsters imc.

This is why DMs have the power to disallow characters and items from other DMs' campaigns. DMs play on different power levels, and/or have different gaming styles. I will allow a character someone has played in another DM's campaign, but you have to start with the XP total I specify, and I get a line-item veto on any magic item, prestige class, feat, etc. Basically, I allow the same ability scores and core class(es) the character had in a previous campaign, but it's really a copy of the character, not the character itself.

And there are players out there who will use the excuse that another DM allowed something gamebusting. Well, in that case you're dealing with one of the following.

1. The player is simply lying. Or perhaps the DM did allow it, and tacked on restrictions the other player isn't telling you about.
2. The DM in question was inexperienced or gullible. Hey, I learned just like all the other DMs out there. Clever players have been taking advantage of DMs for years. Game balance is something you have to learn from experience.
3. The other DM may have different tastes, or a different DMing style.

I've also found that more mature players genrally accept a DM's judgement calls more readily, at least when the DM is being fair and reasonable.

 

[Mark]

There's a difficult balance to maintain between keeping it interesting enough for yourself that you want to keep on developing a campaign world, and keeping the players interested enough to accept whatever limitations you place on the amount or types of material you'll include in your creation.

I think if you find that you have a number of players who like to experiment a lot with character building it is worth running more than one campaign at a time, switching between them every other session. Make sure to let them know that while you understand what keeps it interesting for them, and want to supply that sometimes, you also need to be catering to your own whims sometimes, as well.

If the players don't really understand that it is a give-and-take situation, chances are you are not going to enjoy playing with them for long and might want to either find a new group right away, or just run something loose for them for a while while building your campaign world for the next group that you gather.

Otherwise...

There's nothing wrong with honing your in-game DMing skills with them for a while and then collecting some new players for your masterpiece. Ask almost any long time DM on these boards and you'll find two things for sure. If the players aren't enjoying themselves, it's not really worth DMing, and, if you try to foist your vision of the ideal game on a group that isn't interested it will likely remove some of your own world building fun (which will cause your creation to suffer).

Go with the flow for a while and save your best stuff for someone who will appreciate it. Run a bunch of one-shots for the current group for a while and do your best to explore as many variations of creatures and combat tactics as you can. Discover new ways to use skills, feats, items, etc. Challenge yourself as a DM to become the fasted combat running DM that ever played. Make the game as god-awful challenging for the players as you dare without losing them. That's my advice.

When you get to that next group that wants to explore your personal creation, you'll be a much better DM for it and the players in that next group will appreciate it that much more.

 

[hong]

There's nothing wrong with honing your in-game DMing skills with them for a while and then collecting some new players for your masterpiece.

There is no masterpiece, grasshopper. DMing is a journey, not a destination.

Ask almost any long time DM on these boards and you'll find two things for sure. If the players aren't enjoying themselves, it's not really worth DMing, and, if you try to foist your vision of the ideal game on a group that isn't interested it will likely remove some of your own world building fun (which will cause your creation to suffer).

Just as no plan survives contact with the enemy, no world survives contact with the players.


Hong "Zen DM" Ooi

 

[DM_Matt]

Campaigns destroyed by catering to whims…

Ok in another thread….
Evil Eli……
I will damned if I let a group of RPG players tell what my campaign (That I wrote and run) should and should not be!
[...]
Catering to the players whims and wants will eventually ruining any half way decent campaign and I speak from experince!


Interesting. Care to tell the story (perhaps in its own thread)? My experience and preferences tend toward the polar opposite.

. . . . . . . – Eric

Ok Eric here is a few reasons I have the core or door policy. Or will gladly accept bribes of books for my collection.


The evil mage who no one knew was evil.
Player wanted to use the Complete Elf book. He gave me photo copies of what he said was all the necessary info. Forgetting the max stat page. So he is running around with an elf with the best int in the party a 19. And that was just the beginning. This became one player we never called if we were gaming.

The Power up Paladin player. I forget the splat book but he loaned the book to me 3 days before the game. I was not able to cover all and told him so. Now one of my house rules is a new character has full normal gear and 3 CLW potions. All other magic depends on the adventure. The paladin automatically gets full field plate AC 1 in second Ac 19 in third. Spells at second level. Still no problem. He levels up to third and automatically summons a +5 holy avenger. In the middle of combat. He didn’t think I should be mad because it was listed in the splat book. Forgetting they are in a poor dunk town. Hundreds of miles away from his temple. And the other paladins imc were happy to get their holy avengers at seventh level.


The magic missle machine gun mage. Think of the mac ten with a magic missle wand in the clip. No problem because the other four dms allow it. Not one mention the drawback. So the pcs hoping in and out of worlds. In one campaign they are slaying dragons at fifth level. My campaign was not set up for it. Oh the drawback I discovered while under a different dm. The percentage chance of backfire is equal to the number of missles shot off 0-20. This was how many months of them mowing down monsters imc.


Honest I DMed that module but don’t remember it all that well… too many times in my early years.


Phasers and light sabers should be solar powered. I created my own S3 module and originally was going to have the power packs run out.

Oh, I see. You power trip on just about everytihng beucase you included some enormously stupid stuff that characterized 2e (KITS, KITS, KITS!!!!), and in the case of the machine-gun mage, something taht was just plain off-the-wall dumb. That makes a lot of sense. Who needs moderation?

Your problem seems to be your players, too. The group I game with loves to maximize and optimize their characters, but they understand taht even if they all do it, there is a limit before the whole campaign becomes unfun.

And about that mage, really, what WAS so important about his 19? His ability to know unlimited spells, which wasn't all that useful because he had to find them (and you could limit that) and because there are only so many good spells in the PH anyway?

 

[jasper]

Saeviomagy and DMmatt. the 19 is the only thing I remember from the crappy class. Put this way after three sessions the class was the most powerful.
But his introduction of the crappy class and then other actions both d&d related and socially got him ban.

Oh so I missed 1 or more items from the special paladin when I only a few days to review the book. He didn’t say what class he was going to take so I could focus on it. And I asked him any special surprises. And it my fault! How about this a player brings in a box of assorted chocolates that he loves to table and does not warn me the three in the top left corner contain coconut. And coconut makes me stick and everyone know that. Then he offers me a coconut lace piece of chocolate. So I get sick because I should have known exactly what each individual chocolate contains????

Yes I included stupid stuff Yes I NOW know that. Plane hopping does not work. But if I stood firm and did not give into the whiner I would not had to deal with the headaches.

Yeah far be for me to trust the players who have lots of money to buy all the splat books. And TSR to keep the power levels in check.
Of the magic missile machine gun is still imc but after one backfire the players generally only fire off three magic missles per round with it. Some things are dumb but that is how a dm learns. He does something dumb and then decides to place restrictions.
The whole point of this thread is when DMs go against their gut, better judgement and give in to the whining of a player. Any other DMs got tales of woe when you let the players whining get the better of you.

 

[Kastil]

I can agree with catering to whims has the potential to have the campaign go straight to hell. I've had my problems with players in the past wanting special things and/or wanting to use source books I didn't have for their characters. I solved that problem with making my own code of conduct for the game. Here's two of the 'rules' that might apply to the situation:

10) CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS
This is best described in an example:
You walk into town and go into the local tavern. Someone looks at you cross eyed and you take up the closest bar stool. You then proceed to introduce the barstool to the face of the offending patron. A bar brawl ensues and the local law comes in. Guess what? You started it so guess who's going to jail and possibly losing some of his possession s to fix the damage to the bar? YOU!!!
I expect you to use that gray matter betwixt thy ears.
I cannot expect current party members to welcome new ones with open arms. It is up to you to gain their trust so don't blow it!

11) I KNOW WE'RE FIRST LEVEL AND ALL BUT CAN I HAVE A +5 VORPAL SWORD OF DRAGON SLAYING?
I have learned from experience not to bend on certain things. When at 1st level (or any level for that matter), you have what your starting gold can buy. PERIOD. If your family was a bunch of nancy tree huggers and you want to have knowledge of every freaking flora and fauna, use your skill points. That's what they're for. I don't care if you have a magical sword/armor/etc as a family heirloom, it gets left with Gramps back at the family farm. It's hardly fair to the other gamers to have one player stacked to the hilt because of the fabled family magical garter belt of giant strength or for a player to have a 'freebie'.

I still have one player who insists on having some whacked out shield (explained n another thread sometime back, not worth repeating). Since he hasn't given me a valid explaination on why he should have it (not to mention the creation and/or buying it is more than a 1st level character can handle) he isn't currently joining the group in their adventures. If he thinks I'll be nice and let his character be a higher level than 1st when he does offer the explaination, I've got some very sad news to tell him.

It's a matter of live and learn. What's that old phrase? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[billd91]

Sure, as a GM I'm always open to Players bringing me stuff and asking if I would permit it; I tend to home-brew Prestige Classes to target campaign-flavor niches, but Feats, Skills, and Spells are always welcome. And I would hope for similar in a GM. However, a Player that doesn't like "no" for an answer (and even more for those that don't think they are obligated to ask the GM at all) can take a hike.

I think that is the attitude to have. Be open to their suggestions and requests. Honor the ones that won't be a problem. Come up with alternatives to the ones that would be problematic. It's the "core or the door" attitude I don't like, the one that doesn't allow a player to approach with alternative ideas.