D&D 5E Camping is dangerous (how can it be made safer?)

[Mercule]

I'm running LMoP, right now. The group is doing really well, over all -- they even killed the big thing that's not supposed to be beatable, at this level.

That said, they camped in the woods, last game. A random encounter of 6 wolves came up. That doesn't sound like it should be a big deal for a group of 5 3rd level PCs -- especially after seeing what they did to two of them, earlier.

It was nearly a TPK. The elven rogue was on watch and not surprised, though he did lose initiative. The first hit was a crit that send him to 0 hp. I let him get off a warning shout, otherwise it would have been worse. Even so, the cleric was dropped due to being squishy w/o armor. The elven fighter was only trancing, so I ruled she had her armor on and weapons at hand, but she was already slightly wounded and a pair of wolves took her down quickly. Thankfully, the tough, dragonblooded sorcerer had enough hit points to act as an improvised meat shield while the wizard drained his spell cache. It was really, really close, though. If I'd played the wolves to kill, rather than flee after losing a couple of their number, I'm pretty sure the PCs would have been toast. I definitely would have been able to kill two PCs by attacking downed characters, rather than the ones still yelling.

The whole group is okay with PC death being a reality, but a TPK to a pack of wolves seemed like a chump way to go. It raised several questions around setting up an effective camp in 5E:

1) Not really a question, but even having another character on watch doesn't seem like it would have helped too much. Being asleep (i.e. unconscious) is nasty bad.

2) What's a reasonable DC for waking up sleepers by yelling? My gut says its "hard", so DC 20. A couple players felt that was too high. Since everyone rolled under 15 or over 20, it wasn't an issue. Feedback welcome, though.

3) Can Alarm be used to effectively protect a camp? It says 20' cube, which isn't much more warning than the rogue had when he yelled. It would have made the "yelling" automatic, but a larger area still seems better. Can the 20' cube be reshaped, say, to a 5' think ring/square that's hollow in the middle. That seems against both RAW and intent, IMO.

4) Does wearing armor negate a long rest (i.e. sleep)? Could the tanks still wear light armor and sleep?

5) How deep is elven trance? I read it as still being effectively asleep. The advantages are that the elf only needs 4 hours and doesn't need to remove armor or lie down.

6) Do familiars need any down time? I ruled that they needed some recharge, so they disappeared for a few hours, but were around for their masters' watch.

7) Any other thoughts on avoiding a dirt nap when taking a long nap in 5E?

 

[GSHamster]

My first reaction is that you were a little too harsh on the initial detection of the enemy. After all, the party did set up watches and everything.

The way I would have gone is, if the watcher makes the check, she notices the wolves 5 minutes before the actual attack happens. Maybe while they are circling the camp, preparing to launch the attack. Or maybe she picks up the absence of sound as all the other small animals go quiet. Or maybe she picks up the distress of the horses as they catch the scent of the wolves. That gives the watcher enough time to give a general alarm and shake one or two members awake.

It also makes the scene a little more dramatic, like the movies. The party realizes there are wolves before the actual attack.

Basically, you have to reward people for utilizing the proper tactics. The reward for putting people on watch is that the party gets notified of any attempt to attack, and they have enough time that they are not caught totally off-guard. Of course, this may not apply to super-stealthy stuff, but I think should apply to normal creatures like wolves.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I'm running LMoP, right now. The group is doing really well, over all -- they even killed the big thing that's not supposed to be beatable, at this level.

That said, they camped in the woods, last game. A random encounter of 6 wolves came up. That doesn't sound like it should be a big deal for a group of 5 3rd level PCs -- especially after seeing what they did to two of them, earlier.

It was nearly a TPK. The elven rogue was on watch and not surprised, though he did lose initiative. The first hit was a crit that send him to 0 hp. I let him get off a warning shout, otherwise it would have been worse. Even so, the cleric was dropped due to being squishy w/o armor. The elven fighter was only trancing, so I ruled she had her armor on and weapons at hand, but she was already slightly wounded and a pair of wolves took her down quickly. Thankfully, the tough, dragonblooded sorcerer had enough hit points to act as an improvised meat shield while the wizard drained his spell cache. It was really, really close, though. If I'd played the wolves to kill, rather than flee after losing a couple of their number, I'm pretty sure the PCs would have been toast. I definitely would have been able to kill two PCs by attacking downed characters, rather than the ones still yelling.

The whole group is okay with PC death being a reality, but a TPK to a pack of wolves seemed like a chump way to go. It raised several questions around setting up an effective camp in 5E:

In 5e, multiple creatures are a LOT more difficult than a single "tough" creature. It's basically the exact opposite of 3e/4e. It became a running joke in our old 3.5e campaign (a friend was DM'ing it, I was playing). In that game, if our 14th level PC's came upon a dozen monsters, we attacked without mercy...if we came upon a single monster, we hushed up instantly and tried to get the fudge away as quickly and quietly as possible. Oh how times have changed...

1) Not really a question, but even having another character on watch doesn't seem like it would have helped too much. Being asleep (i.e. unconscious) is nasty bad.

2) What's a reasonable DC for waking up sleepers by yelling? My gut says its "hard", so DC 20. A couple players felt that was too high. Since everyone rolled under 15 or over 20, it wasn't an issue. Feedback welcome, though.

DC20 is waaaaay over the top hard for this. Honestly, I'd say everyone wakes up, but I usually have them make a DC10 Perception check to see if they can even think to act on that waking up round. I let them 'get ready' for something but not attack/cast spells. In other words, if they make it, they can grab their shiled and sword that round, then get into it the next; if they fail, they are still trying to engage their brain matter and can't do anything that round. Next round they can get ready, round after that they are good to go. So, basically, someone waking up looses a round, more or less.

If you think it's hard to wake up...get your wife, girl/boy friend, or whatever to walk into your room sometime during the night when you're sleeping and yell at the top of their lungs "Get up! Get up! Wolves are attacking!". Tell me you don't wake up...I dare you... No? Ok, now do it in a forest where you know a grizzly and her cubs live...

3) Can Alarm be used to effectively protect a camp? It says 20' cube, which isn't much more warning than the rogue had when he yelled. It would have made the "yelling" automatic, but a larger area still seems better. Can the 20' cube be reshaped, say, to a 5' think ring/square that's hollow in the middle. That seems against both RAW and intent, IMO.

I think the best use of it would be to set up a funnel point where creatures would naturally try to enter camp; place logs/bushes all around except in one area. Or find a cave, or maybe a natural area to camp that has 3 'sides' protected. Where one would enter camp...place the Alarm spell.

4) Does wearing armor negate a long rest (i.e. sleep)? Could the tanks still wear light armor and sleep?

I'd say yes. No armor at all. Hell, I have trouble sleeping in clothes, let alone armor. Add in the constant threat of instant death from horrible monsters, wounds, strange noises, horribly uncomfortable bedroll on a stone floor, cold temperatures or biting insects...no...sleeping in armor would not help that at all.

5) How deep is elven trance? I read it as still being effectively asleep. The advantages are that the elf only needs 4 hours and doesn't need to remove armor or lie down.

I rule it is equivalent to 'dozing'. I'd give Advantage on the 'wake up' roll I mentioned above.

6) Do familiars need any down time? I ruled that they needed some recharge, so they disappeared for a few hours, but were around for their masters' watch.

Yes. The don't "disappear", though. They are flesh and blood "NPC's" (like horses, pack mules, guard dogs, etc). They would need sleep like every other biological creature...if it bleeds, it needs sleep.

7) Any other thoughts on avoiding a dirt nap when taking a long nap in 5E?

Yup. Have a well thought out plan for when the poop hits the spinning blades. Have spellcasters prepare at least one spell that lets them 'help' in a night time (re: sleeping) attack. When out in the wilderness, use tents. Natural animals will typically go for what they see first, what they hear/smell second; use that to your advantage when setting up camp and the "on watch post". Have more than one camp fire. Oh, always, and I mean ALWAYS have at least one guard (two is better). With one guard, I make that guard roll to stay awake if they have had any damage or a 'long day'.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[MarkB]

3) Can Alarm be used to effectively protect a camp? It says 20' cube, which isn't much more warning than the rogue had when he yelled. It would have made the "yelling" automatic, but a larger area still seems better. Can the 20' cube be reshaped, say, to a 5' think ring/square that's hollow in the middle. That seems against both RAW and intent, IMO.

Alarm can be cast as a ritual in 11 minutes, without expending a spell slot. If the party choose their camp site well, in a position that doesn't allow easy approach from all sides, then 2-3 castings of Alarm can easily be enough to ward all practical avenues of approach.

The tricky part, in a wilderness setting, would be avoiding false positives. Anything Tiny size or larger triggers the alarm, and that includes rodents, birds, snakes and other innocuous wildlife. When camping in woodland, it would be almost impossible for the spell not to be triggered within minutes.

 

[Grainger]

Good suggestions so far.

With regard to sleeping in armour - in real life, people didn't sleep in metal armour (e.g. chain or plate).

As for lighter armour, it depends. "Leather" is not real historical armour, so it depends on how you envision it. If it's like a leather jacket or coat, then they probably can. Real leather armour, in so much as it existed at all, was boiled leather (or otherwise hardened) and would have been very inflexible - so similar to metal armour, really. I don't think D&D leather is intended to be like this, though.

Also, in real life, metal armour had to be cared for. Users would have to take it off to check the straps and clean it. You could rule that PCs need to do this when they camp (except in dire circumstances). If they take it off, how likely would they really be to put in on again to sleep? OK, they might, but it bears thinking about.

So, for leather armour, I'd probably rule that they can sleep in it, and metal definitely not, but of course it's up to you how it works in your game world's reality. Perhaps even metal armour is comfortable enough to sleep in (maybe Elven or Dwarven craftsmanship makes for super flexible but tough armour, for example).

 

[Grainger]

The tricky part, in a wilderness setting, would be avoiding false positives. Anything Tiny size or larger triggers the alarm, and that includes rodents, birds, snakes and other innocuous wildlife. When camping in woodland, it would be almost impossible for the spell not to be triggered within minutes.

The caster can "designate creatures that won't set off the alarm". I took that to mean not just individuals, but types of creature, but now I think of it, I'm not sure. Paging Mearls! .

 

[MarkB]

The caster can "designate creatures that won't set off the alarm". I took that to mean not just individuals, but types of creature, but now I think of it, I'm not sure. Paging Mearls! .

I always took that to just mean being able to exclude party members and allies on an individual basis. Even if not, you might be looking at Nature checks for the wizard. "Alert me when anything passes this barrier, excluding squirrels, voles, rats, bats, cats (but not big cats), owls, crows, ravens, badgers, foxes, squirrels, chipmunks, skunks, rabbits - hey, Ranger, am I missing anything?"

 

[Woas]

In regards to the Sleeping in Armor question, I've ruled in past editions that characters who have sets of heavy armor (and some medium armors) could sleep in parts of their armor which gives them a 'free' set of lighter armor so that they are not completely caught with their pants down if ambushed at night.

For example, a full suit of plate armor would have a fair amount of interconnecting and layered metal, cloth and leather pieces armor to make it comfortable to the wearer during normal use. So that character could 'down grade' and wear some of the under layers to sleep comfortably and have armor around the equivalent in AC of a chain shirt or leather or whatever.. again just as examples.

 

[ccooke]

Sleeping in armour is possible, but risks a bad night.
I'd be fine allowing it, but give the characters a DC10 CON check to avoid taking a level of exhaustion. I'd also say that they can't recover from exhaustion when sleeping with armour.

Edited to add: That said, one of my players has purposely bought a suit of night armour - a specially ordered chain shirt designed to be comfortable sleeping in, with a pink and white bunny motif.

 

[Sacrosanct]

There are a lot of spells (guardian of faith, glyphs of warding, etc) that help a lot, but a lot of people seem to neglect them because they always assume they can short or long rest whenever they want (and it seems there's lots of people who do play like this). However, in my games these spells are important, and not something to be glossed over.

Re: sleeping in armor, I would probably allow it in anything but plate mail. God knows I slept enough times wearing body armor myself. Heck, I've even slept standing up wearing a full ruck while riding in a cattle car.

When you're tired enough...