Can a conuration coup-de-grace?

[Mort_Q]

You're expecting a lot of fine control and ability on a ball of flame that the player directs solar-flare like bursts out of. The control of said flares is the player not the big dumb ball of flame.

Now you're just making stuff up! That's not how my Flaming Sphere works.

Am I correct in thinking that summoned creatures can Coup de Grace though?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Now you're just making stuff up! That's not how my Flaming Sphere works.

Am I correct in thinking that summoned creatures can Coup de Grace though?

Summons bring up the same issues because the summoner "attacks through the summons", so you run into the same ambiguity. There might be a strong fluff case for letting a summons CdG than a conjuration, but by RAW they are pretty much the same in this respect.

 

[Mort_Q]

Hmmm... I don't think I agree.

What about a Ranger's Beast Companion? Can it Coup de Grace?

 

[DracoSuave]

Hmmm... I don't think I agree.

What about a Ranger's Beast Companion? Can it Coup de Grace?

EDIT 2: You can use the Other Action command to command a Beast Companion to make a Coup de Grace action. This costs you a standard action. The beast can then do so, however the only attack it can make with this is a basic attack; it does not have your powers, only the MBA is available to it. This WILL allow you to make a Coup de Grace against an non-adjacent enemy. To use a Beast power to do it, however, requires you be adjacent.

 

[mneme]

I agree with Mort that a summoned creature, unlike a conjuration -can- coup de gras. It's ambiguous due to the "you make the attack through the creature" rule, but you are commanding the creature to make the attack, and for most purposes it is a separate creature -- you don't need to be adjacent to a creature for your summoned creature to flank. Similarly, you don't need to be adjacent for your summoned creature to coup de gras.

FWIW, however, a summon has a specific list of actions that it can take that don't include coup -- so yes, by strict reading it can't coup. (wheras you could coup with it if you were adjacent -- which is kinda silly; as a GM I'd always let you coup with it)

 

[DracoSuave]

I agree with Mort that a summoned creature, unlike a conjuration -can- coup de gras. It's ambiguous due to the "you make the attack through the creature" rule, but you are commanding the creature to make the attack, and for most purposes it is a separate creature -- you don't need to be adjacent to a creature for your summoned creature to flank. Similarly, you don't need to be adjacent for your summoned creature to coup de gras.

In order to do so, you must have some way to command the summoned creature to take an action other than those listed. For the summoned creature to do it, it needs access to the Coup de Grace action. If it does, then yes, it's perfectly allowable.

 

[Mort_Q]

Ah! That's what I was missing.

Coup de Grace is an action... I was thinking of it as a condition, or like flanking... like it occured whenever you attacked a target that was helpless, adjacent, yadda, yadda, yadda...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In order to do so, you must have some way to command the summoned creature to take an action other than those listed. For the summoned creature to do it, it needs access to the Coup de Grace action. If it does, then yes, it's perfectly allowable.

Even then, by a strict reading of the rules, the summoner would have to be adjacent.

Realistically its going to be up to the DM as to exactly how they interpret what sort of undefined actions summons can take. I wouldn't have a problem with it myself but you just can't count on DMs allowing summons to do things simply because it 'seems logical'.

 

[DracoSuave]

Even then, by a strict reading of the rules, the summoner would have to be adjacent.

Realistically its going to be up to the DM as to exactly how they interpret what sort of undefined actions summons can take. I wouldn't have a problem with it myself but you just can't count on DMs allowing summons to do things simply because it 'seems logical'.

If the summoning can take alternate actions, then yes, because even tho -you- are the one who makes the attack, the summoning would be the one taking the coup-de-grace action, requiring IT be adjacent, not you.

Coup de Grace requires the taker of the Coup de Grace action be adjacent. Anything else needed for the power itself does not necessarily have to.

 

[mneme]

Indeed.

Hmm.

You can make attacks, including opportunity attacks, as though you occupied the same space as a mirror image

Your essence occupies that image, allowing you to act normally (including moving and making attacks

Hmm. Ok, so you can clearly Coup when using Avatars of Chaos.

Mirrorblade Army is more arguable -- by a very strict reading, Coup De Gras lets you attack, but isn't an attack itself. So technically, despite MBA letting you attack from its location as if you were there and Coup letting you use any attack to coup, you can't use MBA to coup unless you're otherwise adjacent (which is pointless), as you can't -coup- as if you were where the MBA. This is another thing that I'd likely let slide were I running a game.