Can a conuration coup-de-grace?

[DracoSuave]

Mirrorblade Army is more arguable -- by a very strict reading, Coup De Gras lets you attack, but isn't an attack itself.

I'd agree. In fact, Coup de Grace doesn't require a melee or even ranged attack. You can use any attack with it, however the attack only affects the Coup de Grace critter.

The question I'd ask for Mirrorblade is... would I allow the user of that power to do 'other stuff'. Chances are I would, and would have no problem with a CdG.

 

[Aulirophile]

In order to do so, you must have some way to command the summoned creature to take an action other than those listed. For the summoned creature to do it, it needs access to the Coup de Grace action. If it does, then yes, it's perfectly allowable.

I don't think I'd rule it that way. Coup de grace basically says "perform a coup de grace, using any attack you can normally attack with." So you perform a coup de grace, using a summons attack, which is an attack you can normally attack with. You just have to be adjacent. The summon does not have to be though, so summons with a ranged attack could technically coup de grace from a distance if you were still adjacent.

 

[Mort_Q]

Well...

... If that is a legitimate RAW reading of the rules then I would like to reiterate my call for errata of the Coup de Grace rules to better deal with conjuration/summoning.

 

[mneme]

The issue is conjuration/summoning. They're wildly inconsistent in terms of rules, but consistent in that they only give you a limited set of action types, which don't include, well, every action type.

 

[Aulirophile]

Well...

... If that is a legitimate RAW reading of the rules then I would like to reiterate my call for errata of the Coup de Grace rules to better deal with conjuration/summoning.

Pretty sure that is RAW and yeah, it could use some clarification. Summons can coup de grace but have to be adjacent would be good and is in fact the way I always run it.

Something funny, though. Conjurations can coup just fine.

Attacking with a Conjuration: Normally, a conjuration cannot attack. If your conjuration can attack, you make the attack. You determine line of sight normally, but you determine line of effect from the conjuration, as if you were in its space.

 

[mneme]

Aulirophile: the problem is that sure, you can attack as if you were in the target's space -- but a coup isn't an attack; it lets you attack. So you could make the attack with the conjuration -if- you were adjacent, and then could attack with the conjuration--but you can't.

Catch 22.

 

[Aulirophile]

Aulirophile: the problem is that sure, you can attack as if you were in the target's space -- but a coup isn't an attack; it lets you attack. So you could make the attack with the conjuration -if- you were adjacent, and then could attack with the conjuration--but you can't.

Catch 22.

Coup is a standard action that says "Make any attack you could normally make against an enemy, if it hits, it auto-crits." The PC makes a coup attack, and then uses any attack he can normally use. Last time I checked, your conjurations attacks were attacks you could normally use. It works fine by RAW.

 

[DracoSuave]

Coup is a standard action that says "Make any attack you could normally make against an enemy, if it hits, it auto-crits." The PC makes a coup attack, and then uses any attack he can normally use. Last time I checked, your conjurations attacks were attacks you could normally use. It works fine by RAW.

So long as you are adjacent to the target, absolutely can you coup de grace with a conjuration's attack.

The only time you can use a conjuration or summoning to coup de grace when you are NOT adjacent, is if you can order it to perform actions. Beast Companions, as well, which have the ability to perform other actions, can coup de grace without you adjacent.

 

[Aulirophile]

So long as you are adjacent to the target, absolutely can you coup de grace with a conjuration's attack.

The only time you can use a conjuration or summoning to coup de grace when you are NOT adjacent, is if you can order it to perform actions. Beast Companions, as well, which have the ability to perform other actions, can coup de grace without you adjacent.

I guess the order of operations is a little grey area... rules text.

Attacking with a Conjuration: Normally, a conjuration cannot attack. If your conjuration can attack, you make the attack. You determine line of sight normally, but you determine line of effect from the conjuration, as if you were in its space.

So you coup de grace, attack with the conjuration, and determine LOE from an adjacent square because the conjuration is adjacent, so you coup de grace via the Conjuration without being adjacent. That just makes sense to me, the wording on coup is pretty precise though, so I guess it doesn't work. That is a shame.

And somewhat ironic. Class with the easiest time inducing the "helpless" condition: Wizards. Class with the most summons and conjurations: Wizards.