Can a Druid Wildshape into a Rat Swarm?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

from the srd

"At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. "

"For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature."

Seems OK

Wow. That's interesting. The first evidence that it may, in fact, be legal.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Isn't the "no templates" part in wildshape, too?

Swarm isn't a template. There are absolutely no mechanics available to construct a new swarm from scratch.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wow. That's interesting. The first evidence that it may, in fact, be legal.

Not even close.

How many animals at once can the druid wildshape into? When you answer that and then read the Swarm subtype, you'll understand quickly why it's not legal. As you point out earlier, it's probably not a big deal anyway, but it's certainly not justifiably allowed per RAW.

 

[Len]

The swarm rules use the word "creature" to refer to both the swarm as a whole and individual creatures in the swarm. (Despite "For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature." - I don't know what they mean by "for game purposes" but it obviously doesn't mean "in this rulebook".)

It's a mess. Every DM for himself.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Not even close.

How many animals at once can the druid wildshape into? When you answer that and then read the Swarm subtype, you'll understand quickly why it's not legal. As you point out earlier, it's probably not a big deal anyway, but it's certainly not justifiably allowed per RAW.

One.

"For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature."

What's the problem?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I guess some people read the word "creatures" and choose not to see the fact that it's plural. Others see the "for game purposes" and then choose to ignore the remaining paragraph that specifically outlines what purposes. Then, those same people don't bother reading the subtype description like I suggested.

 

[Tonguez]

There is a Vermin Druid at the WotC site tha can have Swarm companions, can't recall if it allows Swarm wildshape too...

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I guess some people read the word "creatures" and choose not to see the fact that it's plural. Others see the "for game purposes" and then choose to ignore the remaining paragraph that specifically outlines what purposes. Then, those same people don't bother reading the subtype description like I suggested.

Me thinks you're being overly condescending for being on such thin ice - ruleswise.

I've read the swarm subtype description and I don't see anything that obviously contradicts swarms being treated as a single creature. At best swarms are treated as single creatures for some things and as multiple creatures for others, making how wildshape applies uncertain at best.

But glad to hear your opinion on the matter. Alternative viewpoints are always welcome.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm not being condescending at all. I'm sorry to hear you think so. I was being mildly sarcastic, yes, but I had hoped the emoticon would defuse any ill-perceived inference. I guess with that, though, I won't bother trying to respond again for fear of insulting you further.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not being condescending at all. I'm sorry to hear you think so. I was being mildly sarcastic, yes, but I had hoped the emoticon would defuse any ill-perceived inference. I guess with that, though, I won't bother trying to respond again for fear of insulting you further.

The fact that you thought you needed a smiley should have set off alarm bells.

Anyway - wild shape is a game mechanic. For game purposes a swarm is a single creature. I really don't see whats unclear about that...