Can a Druid Wildshape into a Rat Swarm?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Yeah yeah, we know you love Natural Spell. But just b/c you love it doesn't mean the "vast majority" of other players do too. Enough already. This thread is supposed to be about druids and the swarm subtype...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Yeah yeah, we know you love Natural Spell. But just b/c you love it doesn't mean the "vast majority" of other players do too. Enough already. This thread is supposed to be about druids and the swarm subtype...

I'm sorry Ogrork, but I agree that nearly every druid I've ever seen has taken Natural Spell at level 6. It's sort of like trying to find the barbarian without Power Attack.

 

[foxwick]

Hello there. I'm the player that posed the question.

I'm making a comprehensive list of [SRD] wildshape and summonable creatures as a reference aid, and just wanted to know whether or not to include the rat swarm because according to my existing subtype and size filters, it fit.

Since there are Epic feats for vermin and diminutive, but nothing explicitly for swarms, it seemed possible that they were always acceptable, provided you were high level enough for the sizes.

And I enjoy throwing the DM a curveball now and then.

 

[Voadam]

Hello there. I'm the player that posed the question.

I'm making a comprehensive list of [SRD] wildshape and summonable creatures as a reference aid, and just wanted to know whether or not to include the rat swarm because according to my existing subtype and size filters, it fit.

Since there are Epic feats for vermin and diminutive, but nothing explicitly for swarms, it seemed possible that they were always acceptable, provided you were high level enough for the sizes.

And I enjoy throwing the DM a curveball now and then.

I would say under RAW yes for the reasons I stated above quoting from the rules, but I'd check with your DM and bring it up beforehand.

If I was DMing and a PC brought it up cold without my knowing the rules off the top of my head I would say no. Even with the quoted section ready to pull out I would probably have said no and not until I had time out of game to read over the relevant rules and consider it. Although my conclusion would then be sure after mulling it over.

 

[glass]

If swarms are allowed, are mobs?

Everyone seems to have ignored me when I first posted this, so I thought it was worth repeating.

Allowing swarms reasonable in principle (although there might be flavour objections), but I am a little concerned it'll be opening a can of worm (if you'll pardon the pun ).


glass.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Yeah yeah, we know you love Natural Spell. But just b/c you love it doesn't mean the "vast majority" of other players do too. Enough already. This thread is supposed to be about druids and the swarm subtype...

A goodly number of my druids have taken Natural Spell. The other one used a golith trick from Races of Stone, and didn't use convensional WS, he did ok.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Everyone seems to have ignored me when I first posted this, so I thought it was worth repeating.

Allowing swarms reasonable in principle (although there might be flavour objections), but I am a little concerned it'll be opening a can of worm (if you'll pardon the pun ).


glass.

I would say no, since mobs would probably have the Humanoid type and druids are restricted to animals, plants, and elementals for wildshaping.

 

[glass]

I would say no, since mobs would probably have the Humanoid type and druids are restricted to animals, plants, and elementals for wildshaping.

The example from the DMGII preview is a mob of horses, so animal are definitely possible.

However, looking at it, mobs are sized differently so it may be less of a problem.

Stampede (Mob of Light Horses) CR 8
N Gargantuan animal (mob of Large animals)

OTOH, if they start describing swarms in the same way, that'll put them right in the middle of the druids range.


glass.

 

[moritheil]

The fact that you thought you needed a smiley should have set off alarm bells.

You have got to be kidding me. If someone is happy and they want a they should rewrite their post instead of simply using it?

And if not, why does a similar rule of thumb not apply to his situation?

 

[The Souljourner]

Yeah yeah, we know you love Natural Spell. But just b/c you love it doesn't mean the "vast majority" of other players do too. Enough already. This thread is supposed to be about druids and the swarm subtype...

The druid in our party didn't take it at 6th because he wanted leadership instead. We pestered him for 3 levels because he never used wildshape in combat because it meant he couldn't cast spells (and his cohorts kept leaving, so he was getting nothing out of leadership). So half the time he'd just stand around not doing anything, because his attacks in elf form were pathetic.

Natural spell is a must have, perhaps more so than any other feat in existance. Wildshape is a huge part of a druid's arsenal, as are spells. If you have to exclude one or the other during combat, you're seriously gimping yourself.

Anyone who has ever played a druid in a campaign where there is at least somewhat frequent combat will tell you that natural spell is a must have.

And as for the original question, I think it's been played out. Yes, there is some support in the rules for a druid to turn into a swarm, but it doesn't fit with common sense. It's definitely something you should talk to your DM about before attempting.

-The Souljourner