Can a human do this?

[DM-Rocco]

I would not allow that grey area to fly. I think it takes away form the 1/2 elf racial too much. In a campaign with no 1/2 elves i might allow it.

I would argue that the 1/2 is just taking the best parts of human and elf and making a new race. They get the special ability to chose from human and elf feats which is huge. So I wouldn't say that that point of fact would really matter in this instance.

 

[DM-Rocco]

In my opinion, if a character could pick a power from his second class, then there would be no point to the power-swap feats.

First, I personally think the multi-classing system is weak in 4e. But that is just me and a discussion for another thread.

That said, I didn’t say switch out an attack encounter, utility or attack daily power, which is what the power swap feats do. I was only referring to the human’s ability to gain the use of an at-will power from their multiclass.

Yes, page 208 of the PHB does state that, “A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.” However, it is called multiclassing and not selective multiclassing. Maybe R&D dealt with this issue, maybe it was overlooked. I contend that in the case of the human and in the spirit of multiclassing I would say that if you take a multiclassing feat to become a member of that class, you should be a member of that class for all purposes.

 

[DM-Rocco]

The possibility for abuse is just too great here. I'd never allow it in my game, but I play with some pretty heavy optimizers. I could easily expect every strength-heavy human character to pick up Righteous Brand at 1st level... or Twin Strike...

The only way to get an at-will from another class is through paragon multiclassing, but you have to take a pretty big hit to do that. I like it that way.

Well, I could see where you might think that some players might min/max it but even with those powers it doesn't seem abusive. Twin Strike doesn't do extra damage from a modifier so there is a balacning factor already taken into account and wouldn't be any more abusvie than a ranger. Plus, a fighter wouldn't have the ranger ability to wield any two weapons, they would be limited to at least one off hand weapon.

How exactly would a strength-heavy human fighter who picked righteous brand be different from a strength-heavy cleric using the same power?

There seems like there is a trade off for just about every at-will power, and it is not like you are taking a paragon level power at first level to gain an at-will, you are taking a feat that treats you as a member of that class and you have a racial ability that allows you to take an at-will from your class.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Yeah, Class abilities aren't realy IN the description of the MC feats, at least not beyond the ones they come with. However, letting a human character do that doesn't seem all that gamebreaking.

That is basically what I think. No matter what at-will you take, there will be a trade off, especially if the ability used for the attack isn’t the same as your base class.

Well, seems like a few for and a few more against. Any other opinions?

 

[monboesen]

Completely against.

Getting the at-will power of another class is the crowning moment of choosing the 4 required multi-class feats and selecting the muti-class paragon option. A moment you have to wait 10 levels to reach.

Letting humans do the same by spending a feat on whats a really strong feat-choise anyway at 1st level is not a good idea and not at all allowed by RAW IMO.

Humans make great multiclassers simply because they have an extra at-will power to swap when following the multi-class paragon option.

 

[jasin]

The theory is that the human has a racial bonus feat. In theory this feat is taken at the time of choosing the race. If that feat is a multi-class feat, let’s say Arcane Initiate, the human at this point in character creation doesn’t have any other list to choose an at-will power from, because the base class hasn’t been chosen yet, but they would in this instance, have all the wizard at-will powers to pick from. So, a human in theory could pick a wizard at-will power in this case for his human bonus at-will.

If your order of character creation stands, what happens if the human doesn't take a multiclass feat? Does it mean that, at the point when he's choosing his extra human At-Will, doesn't have any At-Wills to choose from, because the base class hasn't been chosen yet? Does it mean that single class humans don't benefit from the human extra At-Will?

It seems to me that your reasoning reduces to the absurd. (Even though I'm sympathetic to the idea, and asked the same question when I first got the books. But really, that's not the intent, and that's not what what the rules say.)

 

[DM-Rocco]

If your order of character creation stands, what happens if the human doesn't take a multiclass feat? Does it mean that, at the point when he's choosing his extra human At-Will, doesn't have any At-Wills to choose from, because the base class hasn't been chosen yet? Does it mean that single class humans don't benefit from the human extra At-Will?

It seems to me that your reasoning reduces to the absurd. (Even though I'm sympathetic to the idea, and asked the same question when I first got the books. But really, that's not the intent, and that's not what what the rules say.)

In addition to being a DM for over 25 years, I am also an official judge from the Magic the Gathering game. I have a tendency now to also view things in the order in which things are done. I see the game going in order that they appear in the book. So pick an at-will power first. There isn’t a list to choose from so the game goes on to the next step. You chose a bonus feat. If you chose a non-multiclassing feat the game stops for a second to back track and see if there are any at-will powers to choose from. There aren’t, so you move on to the next step, picking a bonus skill.

In the case of a human taking a multiclass feat, they now have a class to choose an at-will from the next time the game pauses.

I don’t feel it takes anything away from the game or other races or classes. 4e is fairly balanced and the addition of an at-will power from an outside class is not broken or abusive. I feel that humans should have an edge in multiclassing anyway. Plus, an argument that the paragon multiclassing is the pinnacle of multiclassing achievement is really a joke. Being able to swap out an at-will power that you know for one from your class is weak. You really aren’t gaining anything. Not when normal paragon paths offer an additional power or ability the takes place when you use an action point and you also at 11th level gain a feat like bonus. Even if you took all the feats to multiclass as paragon why would you give up those two for an at-will. Some of those abilities are very good.

Anyway, in the end it comes down to personal choice for a PC and DM. Yes it may not be in the RAW but it isn’t abusive. Personally, I would even entertain the idea of allowing any multiclassing character to freely switch with any at-will power they know as if they were on their base class list and instead of gaining an at-will power as an encounter power I would let the multi classing character pick a class feature from that class. Who in their right mind would want to multiclass into a ranger role if you never get the benefit of the fighting style class feature?

Alright, still open for talking about it. Any other takers?

 

[Wolf88]

Choosing a multiclass feat does NOT give you access to any power list, so you would still have to wait the choice of the primary class. Access to a power list that is not your primary is regulated via other feats.

Moreover, as someone said, gaining an at-will from another class is a crowning moment of awesome, giving it away at 1st level looks... Cheap to me.

Still, it's your game, there is no badwrongfun!

 

[Starglim]

This would either duplicate an 11th level ability that costs 4 feats (paragon multiclassing), edit: or exceed the prime ability of another race (half-elf Dilettante). As others have mentioned elsewhere, there are good reasons to restrict taking at-will powers from another class. I can't see any way it should be allowed.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Okay, ponder this then.

Forget about the RAW, just approach it from a different way.

Think of the history of humans from AD&D to 3.X to now. They have always been diverse. In the spirit of the history of humans and their versatility would you allow it?

Some times that game isn’t cut and dry. Sometimes we read into the rules. I give you for consideration page 193 of the PHB 4.0. Every Armor Proficiency feat says Benefit: You gain training with (insert armor type) armor. Well, that isn’t a game mechanic. According to the RAW you don’t gain a “Proficiency” with armor, you just gain training. What that means isn’t defined. We as DMs and Players make a connection to assume “Proficiency.”

I should have labeled this thread, “Would you allow a human to do this,” rather then, “Can a human do this?”

Does that change anyone’s minds?