Can a monk with natural weapons use them in a flurry?

[Sil]

I admit I wasn't sure about that...I don't, at this point, see any reason for or against either arguement (that a monk with a monk weapon in each hand could use both in a flurry).

Would not it require an argument against? If there is no such argument that can be made, then it must be allowed, no?

 

[Alzrius]

Would not it require an argument against? If there is no such argument that can be made, then it must be allowed, no?

The possible arguement against is that if you have two weapons (one in each hand), then any round in which you attack with both is a case of two-weapon fighting.

Going back over and reading the except on flurry of blows however (which I cut-and-pasted here, no less), I'm more convinced now that Thanee is correct, and I was wrong about that. Mostly due to this part:

She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired.

Of course, that still doesn't change my response to Diirk. There's still no reason why, when a flurry is over, a monk can't continue to make off-hand attacks via two-weapon fighting.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Entering late as I had to think about this a bit. The "ending a full action action to start another" is always a little too ridiculous of an argument. It's kind of like, "Okay, now I start my full attack action (rolls attacks), no wait, now I really start it (rolls more attacks), okay, one more time, now I start my full attack action ..."

...First, he'd flurry with his unarmed strikes at +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 ...
Next, he'd get his off-hand attacks at +11/+6/+1 ...
Next he'd make his attack for being under a haste effect, making an unarmed monk attack at +11 ...
Next, he'd get two claws at +9 each, and a bite attack at +9 ...
Finally, he takes a 5 ft. step back from his opponent, uses Quick Draw to draw a dagger and throw it at him (thanks to Rapid Shot) at +15...

First, I just wanted to snip the relevant part of this post to make my point. The above example is wrong because it orders the attacks incorrectly. If you order them correctly, you'll see why your interpretation is false. You order your attacks in a full attack action from highest BAB to lowest. You don't 'add in' new attacks 'after you complete a full attack action.' Since you would have to intersperse your off-hand and natural weapons within the flurry, you cannot take off-hand attack with a non-flurry weapon or natural weapon attacks while flurrying.

N'est-ce pas?

 

[Kobold Stew]

You don't 'add in' new attacks 'after you complete a full attack action.' Since you would have to intersperse your off-hand and natural weapons within the flurry, you cannot take off-hand attack with a non-flurry weapon or natural weapon attacks while flurrying.

N'est-ce pas?

Exactement.

 

[Diirk]

"Mainhand attacks"? You seem to be neglecting that monk's don't need to use their hands to attack at all. From the SRD:

Sorry, perhaps I should have said primary attacks. I was referring to attacks derived from your normal BAB progression.

Even if a monk had a monk weapon in each hand, he still couldn't use them both during a flurry, since that's two-weapon fighting (though he could take the appropriate penalties and attack with it afterwards).

Where does it say you can't use TWF in a flurry ?

Which part of this "specifically states" that a monk flurrying "gives up nonmonk attacks"?

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons"

That bit.

 

[Alzrius]

Entering late as I had to think about this a bit. The "ending a full action action to start another" is always a little too ridiculous of an argument.

Except that's not the arguement (I assume you meant to say "full attack action"). These attacks are all part of the same full attack action.

It's kind of like, "Okay, now I start my full attack action (rolls attacks), no wait, now I really start it (rolls more attacks), okay, one more time, now I start my full attack action ..."

I would say it's like that, except that it's not.

First, I just wanted to snip the relevant part of this post to make my point. The above example is wrong because it orders the attacks incorrectly. If you order them correctly, you'll see why your interpretation is false. You order your attacks in a full attack action from highest BAB to lowest. You don't 'add in' new attacks 'after you complete a full attack action.'

Actually, not all attacks must be made from highest BAB to lowest. From page 143 of the PHB:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Emphasis mine. The point here being that only those attacks made because you have a high enough BAB, which is to say, iterative attacks, must be made in order. Fighting with multiple weapons isn't due to BAB, it's due to using a second weapon (and having feats for it with ITWF and GTWF). Likewise, natural weapons attacks aren't considered due to having a high BAB. Ditto for a haste effect, or a feat (like Rapid Shot).

Hence, the above example I posted works fine.

 

[Alzrius]

Sorry, perhaps I should have said primary attacks. I was referring to attacks derived from your normal BAB progression.

Either way, the point remains the same. A monk that makes a flurry may be attacking with his entire body, but as you pointed out below, nothing says flurrying means you can't then use TWF, so when the flurry is over a monk can still make off-hand attacks.

Where does it say you can't use TWF in a flurry ?

Technically speaking, it comes after the flurry, but that's just attack order. More specifically, you're referring to why a monk can't use a monk weapon in his off-hand during a flurry...which he can (though it's not TWF then). I admitted that they could a couple of days ago, check a few posts back.

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons"

That bit.

Luckily, when the flurry is over, so is that prohibition. Not to mention that it doesn't say anything about giving up non-monk attacks, just not using monk weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You order your attacks in a full attack action from highest BAB to lowest.

Well, now... that's a point that can lead to much discussion.

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest."

Firstly - 'highest bonus' could refer to BAB, or perhaps to total bonus.

Secondly - as Alzrius notes, most of those attacks aren't 'multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough'...

-Hyp.