Can a Wish overcome natural immunities?

[TheGogmagog]

Some creatures have various immunities that are inherent to their nature. For example, mind-affecting spells simply can't affect an undead creature. My question here is if a wish spell could overcome that. If I wanted to use a charm monster effect on a lich, would a wish spell be powerful enough to have that happen (e.g. could I have a wish emulate a charm monster with the proviso that it'd work on an undead creature)?

Your question was worded just fine in my opinion, I thought about elves' immunities to sleep and outsider's immunities to certain elemental damages even though you used undead as and example. It is typical on the boards to recieve responses of the likes of "why would you do that, don't do that do this, something else is better, you are a 'anything goes' powergamer". I try to make my original questions as concise as possible then expound upon them later from personal experience. So, I sympathise with your frustrations, but I wouldn't have snaped at Hypersmurf like that.

Now, if we can quit bickering and get back to the original question.

Can you bypass natural immunities with Wish?

I would think that it would have to be an independant Wish, not included in casting a spell with a proviso. So it would be more like a version of the spell Lower Resistance. The judgement call is what level the new spell Lower Immunities effect would be, if it doesn't already exist somewhere.

To discuss your specific example, I might allow it as a proviso in a series of similar spells that might have progressed to what you want. Charm person, Charm monster, possibly leading to charm construct or undead at level x.

 

[TheGogmagog]

To generalize my response: to "Can you wish for XYZ?" the answer is "If you can you create a sor/wiz spell of 8th level or any other 7th that would XYZ."

I don't think that you would actually have to do the spell research, but the DM would have to determine the level and what if any saves would apply for the effect.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'd also be inclined to think that some immunities are different from others. A creature with the [fire] subtype is immune to fire by their very nature. I don't think even a wish could change it without removing the subtype. I don't know any hard and fast way of making those distinctions, however. TheGogmagog's approach is probably the most accurate, though inevitably short on specifics.

 

[Sejs]

Given that, would you say that a limited wish would get the same results, or would it need to be a full-fledged wish (or miracle) spell?

To be honest, I'd probably have to play it by ear in the case of a Limited Wish. I'd probably end up breaking the scenario down into the hows and whys of the immunity before I made my decision. For example:

An Iron Golem is immune to Charm Monster for two primary reasons - it's a construct, and thus immune to mind affecting effects, and more importantly, it's non-intelligent. Oh, and it's got the magic immunity thing going for it as well, but we'll ignore it right now for the purpose of example. To charm an Iron Golem, I'd say you needed a full-fledged Wish to do the deed, because you need to work around the fact that there is no mind there to influence, normally.

A Nimblewright is also a construct and therefore immune to mind affecting effects like Charm Monster. It it not, however, unintelligent. It has an int score, and thus a mind of some sort. I'd say you could bypass a Nimblewright's immunity to Charm Monster with a Limited Wish. The rule that the spell is bending is less concrete in the case of the Nimblewright than it is in the case of the Iron Golem.

Want to make a vampire vulnerable to a poison? Limited Wish. The systems are there, in some form or another, they just don't operate normally. Want to make an animated boulder vulnerable to a poison? Full-blown Wish. It's a rock. You're going to need a much bigger hammer to get that square peg to fit that particular round hole. Fire elemental vulerable to fire? Big Wish. It is Fire. Red Dragon vulerable to fire? Little Wish. It's just a dragon. So on and so forth.

Likewise, if you just wanted to have the wish lower their natural immunity for a number of rounds, instead of mimicking a spell that would bypass it, how would you adjudicate that?

I'd probably have it operate on the basis of the target being vulnerable to the next, and only next application of the Widget. I wouldn't base it off of rounds of vulnerability; it would be a single shot, and said vulerability would persist until that shot took place, no matter how long it takes the proverbial shoe to drop.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Blowing a Wish is about as major a resource as you can expend, frankly.

If you want to drop 5,000 exp or use a wish item, yeah, I'd personally let it fly. That's a pretty hefty investment to get a one-off thing like Charm Monster or whatever to work.

Actually this is a comment and detail I overlooked. I'm playing a Cleric so I was thinking mainly of Miracle which does have diferent capabilities in addition of not having the exp cost. So for Limited Wish or Miracle, I would stick more closely to the spell emulation guidelines. Which would be up to the player and DM to agree on what level an affect would be, to remove it completely or for a duration or for then

5,000 exp is a heafty investment (I suppose being in the debt of a diety could be a heafty investment too). I would allow it more freedom than I would spell effects. I also agree that removing a fire elementals fire immunity or dominating an unilteligent construct would be unlikely with Wish, But allowing an elf or dragon to be put to sleep or inteligent undead to be charmed would definatly be within Wish's power.

 

[boofangle]

Given that, would you say that a limited wish would get the same results, or would it need to be a full-fledged wish (or miracle) spell?

Likewise, if you just wanted to have the wish lower their natural immunity for a number of rounds, instead of mimicking a spell that would bypass it, how would you adjudicate that?

I'd say even wish or miracle are a no go RAW unless your homebrew the rule or spell. limited wish has 0 chance of working, wish or miracle may, but would have severe repercussions, like you lose all your immunities if have any and can't gain any, permanently and they lose theirs for 24 hours, or you gain permeant weakness to what you removed as their immunity. RAW wish and miracle are only 2 with the potential but it is very much outside the normal scope so if it did work, there would for sure be a negative equal or greater to the caster. Reason why is easy, remove mind affect immunity from a lich or even Vecna, mind rape and gain thousands if not tens of thousands of years of knowledge, all secrets in terms of Vecna, or remove immunity to fire on a fire elemental in the fire plane, way too many things break if can remove immunities Via wish or anything in game for RAW. Can always home brew though as it's the only real option if your set on that.

 

[Tonguez]

Wish is a horrible spell it does whatever the most obnoxious person in the room wants it to

 

[Alzrius]

I'd say even wish or miracle are a no go RAW unless your homebrew the rule or spell. limited wish has 0 chance of working, wish or miracle may, but would have severe repercussions, like you lose all your immunities if have any and can't gain any, permanently and they lose theirs for 24 hours, or you gain permeant weakness to what you removed as their immunity. RAW wish and miracle are only 2 with the potential but it is very much outside the normal scope so if it did work, there would for sure be a negative equal or greater to the caster. Reason why is easy, remove mind affect immunity from a lich or even Vecna, mind rape and gain thousands if not tens of thousands of years of knowledge, all secrets in terms of Vecna, or remove immunity to fire on a fire elemental in the fire plane, way too many things break if can remove immunities Via wish or anything in game for RAW. Can always home brew though as it's the only real option if your set on that.

For what it's worth, I managed to ask this question to Skip Williams (one of the designers of 3E, among his numerous other credits), who answered it in the pages of Kobold Quarterly #10:

The wish spell is included in the game to give players a chance to tweak campaign reality, so it’s slightly more to their liking. In keeping with that idea, using it to remove things that interfere with a party’s goals is fine.

You can use a wish to remove a troublesome special quality from foes. I recommend that the spell affect a maximum of one foe per two caster levels the wish has. The wish user should have line of sight to all the affected creatures (or be able to touch them). One wish can suppress one special quality in the subjects or render the subjects susceptible to one form of attack. Allow a Will or Fortitude save to resist the effect, as appropriate for the quality being suppressed. Making a red dragon susceptible to fire, for example, would allow a Fortitude save. Making a mindless creature subject to mind-affecting spells would allow a Will save.

If successful, the effects of the wish last one day. A limited wish would work much the same way, except that it affects only 1 target and its effects last only 1 round or, perhaps, a few rounds (say 1d4 or 1d6 rounds). A limited wish also would have a lower saving throw DC than wish, thanks to its lower level.

Keep in mind that even when you use wish in this way, spells and other attacks still have restrictions that apply. A charm person spell, for example, still only works on creatures with the humanoid type and a magic missile still only works on creatures—though a separate wish could change that temporarily.

When players try to use a wish this way, be alert for applications that fit the spell description more closely. For example, instead of using a wish to make a giant susceptible to charm person, use it to duplicate charm monster. Likewise, wishing to suppress a defense and create a harmful effect probably is best handled by duplicating another spell. To burn a red dragon, for example, you ought to wish for a flame strike effect—some of that damage is divine and not fire—or to produce a spell with the cold descriptor.

 

[aco175]

Another 20 year old thread worth updating. I might let a player get away with it. If the player says that he wants his charm spells to work on any creature with more than animal intelligence. The problem might be with the next wish trying to push things and saying that you want your fire spells to be able to damage every creature or always deal max damage. It seems like a line someplace.

 

[monsmord]

"I with this thread were necro'd..."