Can AC go below 0?
- Thread starter Ogrork the Mighty
- Start date
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
Oh, it's certainly possible. Just exceedingly rare...
Lord Pendragon said:Power Attack is capped at your BAB. So with a 10+ strength, you can full Power Attack and still hit an AC 2 on everything except a 1, which is an automatic failure. Again, I don't really see much of a reason to need an AC in the negatives.
Iterative attacks
. If I take a -20 to hit via Power Attack my fourth iterative attack is going to be made at base -15. Sure, I can probably get that up to -5 with strength, magic and feats, but I'm still better off attacking AC -3 than AC 0.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Lord Pendragon said:
It is not difficult to imagine missing a modest negative AC. Cover and engaged in melee with ally with net you a -8 modifier right there. Wizard with a ray rolling a natural 2 on the die will miss that shot a lot, even against an opponent with an extremely bad AC.
I just have not seen these low, low ACs in a living creature. I suppose a charging Dex poisoned huge creature could be AC 1 right there. Other AC mods?
RangerWickett
Legend
You can't power attack if your Strength is less than 13.
Let's see how much we can anti-power game without relying on magic.
Urgthk, a 20th level human ranger, has been having a bad day. He has been poisoned by a giant wasp, then rendered weaponless by his greatest enemy, the FearMeister. Urgthk managed to escape into the sewers, procuring as weapons an incredibly small whip he stole from a baby pixie, and a kama sized for an ogre. He also stole some armor, but unfortunately it's half-plate, and he's not proficient with it. He's trying to escape some rats in the sewer, so he's shimmying through a 3-ft. wide pipe when the FearMeister appears at the end of the pipe just feet from Urgthk's face, spouting off intimidating insults, then tossing flash powder and a tanglefoot bag at Urgthk.
We have a 20th level ranger (+20 BAB) with Str 13, Int 13, and Dex 1 (poisoned), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, and Weapon Finesse (-5 penalty with Dexterity), wearing armor he's not proficient with (-7), fighting with two weapons (-6/-10, since he treats the whip as his primary weapon, and the kama as off-handed, and he can't make use of his two-weapon fighting feat while in heavy armor) while prone (-4), dazzled (-1), entangled (-2), shaken (-2), and squeezing through a space (-4). Figuring he'll not hit anyway, he power attacks for 20 (-20), uses Improved Combat Expertise for 20 (-20), and fights defensively (-4).
Because the whip sized for a fine creature (-8 penalty for size difference, -4 for non-proficiency), and the kama is sized for a Large creature (-2 penalty for size, -4 for non-proficiency), Urgthk's attack bonus is:
Kukri - +20 +1 -7 -10 -4 -1 -2 -2 -4 -20 -20 -4 -2 -4, for -59/-64/-69.
Whip - +20 -5 -7 -6 -4 -1 -2 -2 -4 -20 -20 -4 -8 -4, for -71/-76/-81/-86.
Because he's denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he does not benefit from the dodge bonus to AC.
Beat that.
Let's see how much we can anti-power game without relying on magic.
Urgthk, a 20th level human ranger, has been having a bad day. He has been poisoned by a giant wasp, then rendered weaponless by his greatest enemy, the FearMeister. Urgthk managed to escape into the sewers, procuring as weapons an incredibly small whip he stole from a baby pixie, and a kama sized for an ogre. He also stole some armor, but unfortunately it's half-plate, and he's not proficient with it. He's trying to escape some rats in the sewer, so he's shimmying through a 3-ft. wide pipe when the FearMeister appears at the end of the pipe just feet from Urgthk's face, spouting off intimidating insults, then tossing flash powder and a tanglefoot bag at Urgthk.
We have a 20th level ranger (+20 BAB) with Str 13, Int 13, and Dex 1 (poisoned), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, and Weapon Finesse (-5 penalty with Dexterity), wearing armor he's not proficient with (-7), fighting with two weapons (-6/-10, since he treats the whip as his primary weapon, and the kama as off-handed, and he can't make use of his two-weapon fighting feat while in heavy armor) while prone (-4), dazzled (-1), entangled (-2), shaken (-2), and squeezing through a space (-4). Figuring he'll not hit anyway, he power attacks for 20 (-20), uses Improved Combat Expertise for 20 (-20), and fights defensively (-4).
Because the whip sized for a fine creature (-8 penalty for size difference, -4 for non-proficiency), and the kama is sized for a Large creature (-2 penalty for size, -4 for non-proficiency), Urgthk's attack bonus is:
Kukri - +20 +1 -7 -10 -4 -1 -2 -2 -4 -20 -20 -4 -2 -4, for -59/-64/-69.
Whip - +20 -5 -7 -6 -4 -1 -2 -2 -4 -20 -20 -4 -8 -4, for -71/-76/-81/-86.
Because he's denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he does not benefit from the dodge bonus to AC.
Beat that.
RangerWickett
Legend
I have no idea, though, how we could get the FearMeister's AC to be -70 or less, so Urgthk'd actually have a chance to hit.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Only a cheesy powergamer would full Power Attack with such terrible to hit penalties. Good job! 
Timeboxer
Explorer
Technically, yes. If you're curious about the possibilities of this, you may wish to take a look at the WotC Character Optimization board, where someone came up with a character based essentially on the premise, "Well, if your AC must be low, it may as well be as low as possible." After a certain point, you're pretty much always going to get hit, and so this means that any exchange-AC-for-something abilities are "free."
