Can ANYONE come up with a good reason for this?

[Jeph]

And a thing that bothers me about craft and profession: Untrained workers earn more money than those with a +4 skill bonus, the common "good" blacksmith, armorer, or merchant. THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

-Jeph

 

[Crothian]

And a thing that bothers me about craft and profession: Untrained workers earn more money than those with a +4 skill bonus, the common "good" blacksmith, armorer, or merchant. THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

-Jeph

Untrained worker makes a sp/day or 1.4gp a week. A Proffesion makes 1/2 his skill check in gp a week. So, with a +4, you take 10 and get 7gp a week.

Also, a good whatever will be higher then first level, have at least +2 from attribute, +2 from skill focus or other skill related feat, and +2 from MW items.

 

[der_kluge]

For what it's worth, whenever I get around to writing up my own house rules (lengthy, to be sure), I intend to split the skill list. The current list, minus "those things you learned as kids". I intend to give everyone a certain number of skill points that they can use to buy skill ranks from the "things you learned as a kid" skill list.

That way, everyone can have ranks in things like swim, jump, climb, spot, and listen, etc.

Craft and Profession certainly aren't things learned as kids (although they could be, I suppose), but everyone should have access to them.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's a good point, Fidgit, but skill points represent training. INT checks aren't enough for everything, you still need to receive training in Knowledge, Profession, and Craft skills to be considered an expert. And, currently, there are only two base classes that can cheaply raise Knowledge skills other than the one corresponding to their class. That means that useful knowledge skills like History, Engineering, the Planes, and so on are effectively only available to two classes, because with the limited number of skill points everyone gets, no one is going to buy these cross-class.

This is why I compared it to Languages. If your campaign spends all its time in Sigil, you should have a few ranks in Knowledge: the Planes. It's campaign-specific, but under the current system you end up just giving them a circumstance bonus to the check. Same for if an Elf is trying to do a Knowledge check on Elven history.

I also was thinking about languages. In a way, they're too cheap, and I don't really like the Literacy requirement for Barbarians either (to me Barbarian is a fighting style, also called Berserker, not a culture). So, I wanted to create a Language skill. One rank gives you crude grammar (-2 to Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy...) and not literate. Two gives literacy and conversational mastery. Three is full fluency, you can pass for a native (+2 to any Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Gather Information, etc. skill check done in that language). Of the core classes only Bards get this as a class skill (making the cost 1/2/3 for them, 2/4/6 for others), although many classes also have a specific language that would be a class skill for them (Druidic, Draconic, etc.). Maybe expand each language to a 5-rank scale (crude, commoner, literate, educated, fluent). Maybe make it an INT-based skill so that you do "Language checks" to read something.

The catch is, instead of automatic languages, give each RACE a "race skill" list. This would include the languages on your race list, plus certain Crafts, Professions, and Knowledges. For example, give Dwarves the craft skills involving metal and stone, give Gnomes all the Knowledge skills, and so on. At each level, you get 1 skill point (4 at first level) that can only be spent on your Race Skills. Hopefully you'd spend the 1st-level ones on your home language.

Your classes might or might not have some of these as class skills, too, but this'd allow a little spending on these.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

I'm going to give a big shout out and much love to Scrollworks number 25! It has something that I think you would like to look at. Basically it breaks each class down to so many class skills plus the craft, knowledge, or profession skills. It allows cross-skills to be learnt by anyone and only exclusive skills stay the way they are. progression stays the same. 1 example the Fighter gets 5 skill points plus craft or profession at 1st level.

 

[dead_radish]

Just fyi:

Currently my character has 21 ranks in 3 crafts (Trapmaking, Poisonmaking and Jewelry making). Our master smith has 15 in smithing, 5 in Knowledge (Metals) and 5-8 in Profession (Smith).

The other two characters have 5 and 8 ranks respectively.

So some people do take them.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Not saying that some don't. I've got about 25 ranks of Craft skills and 20 of Knowledge skills (level 15 character). It makes for some interesting games, but it's hardly typical.

 

[DrSkull]

I can certainly see Aristocrats not having access to Craft and Profession (that's all peasant work). A real aristocrat wouldn't be caught dead doing honest work.

It reminds me of a story about Iraqi prisoners in the last war. Iraq has a very socially stratified military, and once some tents blew over in an officers' prion camp. The officers slept outside rather than be seen to be actually working with their hands by the nearby enlisted men (who were their social inferiors of course).

 

[Staffan]

Staffan, look around you. The only people who know anything about History are musicians and people who use magic? Expert is a possibility (or Aristocrat), sure, but in Real Life everyone has a bit of what would translate as a Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill.

Well, one thing to consider is that most people I know (and in the modern western world) have a far better education than the norm in D&D. Another thing to consider is that most people don't actually know all that much about history - they know the basics, but if you ask most people they don't know much in the way of specifics. If applying D&D to the modern world, that would simply be a matter of expanding what is considered "Common knowledge" (which can be known with an Intelligence check).

I do think the only people with comprehensive knowledge of history are people who have dedicated significant parts of their life to studying it, which to me means they have ranks in the knowledge skill. Usually, these are academics which would be represented by Experts in D&D.

Also, for those who want knowledgable non-Wizards/bards/experts, just import the Educated feat from FR. It makes all knowledge skills class skills for you, and gives you a bonus to one of them.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Funny you should mention Educated, I use that one in my campaign. And it's +1 to two different Knowledge skills, plus making all Knowledge class skills.

Comprehensive knowledge of history isn't required. You ARE making a skill check, after all, there's some randomness to the process. For example, let's say that I know a lot about military history. Not because I'm an expert in the field, but because I'm interested in it. I've also had a good history education in general. So let's say I have a few ranks of Knowledge: History. My knowledge doesn't have to be comprehensive; if I fail a skill check, it could simply be random chance that it wasn't the part of the subject I paid attention to.

Even uneducated people know stuff. Family or local history, TV/Sports trivia, whatever. There should be more to this than a simple INT check; I mean seriously, there are some complete idiots out there who are so obsessed with NASCAR or pro wrestling that they'd HAVE to have some sort of bonus. So, everyone needs reasonable access to certain Knowledge skills; cross-class doesn't cut it.

I'm working on a new system based on comments in this thread, it just might work.