Can charisma be something more than just dump stat?

[Herobizkit]

I actually like how GURPS handles Charisma. Insted of a score, it is an Advantage that grants you additional wealth and bonuses on Social checks. You can "buy up" the Advantage to greater effect as well, or "buy down" for bonus points.

If you want to keep the Cha stat, applying something similar to d20 Modern's Wealth system and have the PC's generate income based on their Charisma scores might be worth considering, too. Having PC's be able to access resources without spending their hard-earned gold (in the way of favours, NPC support, gear/magical item access) might be worth something to the right player and/or group.

"I can't swing a sword, but I can call in a group of mercs who can do the swinging for me. And you say you need a diamond to resurrect your pal? I may have a lead on such a thing..."

 

[JRRNeiklot]

OD&D got it right. Charisma was originally a stat to enhance or hamper out of combat roleplaying. The 5 charisma fighter might be a great warrior who fights for good, but always says the wrong thing. "Here's your brat, she sure is an ugly bitch.", he tells the king after rescuing the princess. He can only keep his most loyal henchmen around because he's always pissing people off. Innkeepers are always looking for a way to fleece him out of gold because of his attitude and the way he always seems to say the wrong thing at the worst possible time. On the other end of the spectrum, the 17 charisma guy gets the opposite treatment. Now if you don't care about those sort of things, sure, charisma is a dump stat, but the dm should make you pay for it, just as the 5 strength guy is penalized by barely being able to drag a sword around, even if he's amazing with a longbow. Somewhere we deviated from this method and decided it's wrong to balance combat advantages with non combat disadvantages. The out of combat stuff, FAR outweighs the bonuses to hit or damage or hit points someone who dumps charisma gets, but it requires the dm (and the player) doing his job.

 

[Kask]

OD&D got it right. Charisma was originally a stat to enhance or hamper out of combat roleplaying. The 5 charisma fighter might be a great warrior who fights for good, but always says the wrong thing. "Here's your brat, she sure is an ugly bitch.", he tells the king after rescuing the princess.

It still is, at least in my games.

 

[Janx]

I think it has always been very easy for GMs to enforce combat modifiers and numbers.

It's not so easy to remember or arbitrate what a 5 INT PC can do, or countermand what a 5 CHA PC says.

Especially to do it consistently or fairly. Because the instances of being out of character are subjective. The GM has to "feel" like what you said your PC does or says isn't compatible with your stats.

Whereas the physical stats are easy. You add up the numbers and roll, and beat a DC. You either hit or you don't. You either jump the 15' gap, or you fall.



If you want CHA to matter, you need to incorporate the skills and CHA modifier in every social situation.

If the PC is trying to negotiate or convince, that's a Persuasion or Diplomacy check. This means for every purchase (either per item, or batch or transaction) you have to roll.

If the player "role plays":

give a +2 bonus if they say something charismatic and their PC has a CHA bonus.

give a -2 bonus if they say something charismatic and their PC has a CHA penalty.

Basically, a low cha PC gets no extra penalty/bonus if they keep quiet, or if they act like a low cha PC.

And a high cha PC gets no extra bonus/penalty if they keep quiet or if they act like a low cha PC.


Don't reward a high CHA PC played by a low-cha player, or the inverse.

But always find ways to use CHA.

You could have a simple purchasing rule:
for personal equipment, all items cost as per the book, and you get a 5% reduction per +1 bonus, and a 5% increase per -1 penalty. Basically, high CHA PCs get a discount. PC may not purchase for others (bypassing the penalty), though a PC may buy party items for the party. This means I have to buy MY sword with my CHA penalty raising the cost, but the Paladin could buy healing potions for the party and get his discount.

The purchasing modifier rule would have a pretty direct mathematical impact. It can't be forgotten, in the heat of role-playing. And the only people complaining about it would be the dump-stat CHA users. Consider also, that a number of the D&D CRPGs do this already (Baldur's Gate series for Playstation), so it has validity.

 

[Kask]

Ignore. Website glitched and double posted.

 

[Kask]

If you want CHA to matter, you need to incorporate the skills and CHA modifier in every social situation.

I use a reaction mod whenever someone with a minus or plus interacts with NPCs over something meaningful. I'm surprised to see that some DMs don't.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My group has recently become a Warhammer group.

In WH, skills are just stat rolls on a d100. A typical starting score is 30, which is pretty lame, IMO.

Anyway, we had a doctor character who achieved social skill scores of (literally) over 100% (and he boosted his medical skills even higher).

Compare to DnD, where your ability score is outweighed by skill rank benefits. I Think the situation is a bit better in 4e, since you only get one-half "rank" a level, but the choice between training in a social skill or not is still more important than your Charisma score.

 

[Janx]

I use a reaction mod whenever someone with a minus or plus interacts with NPCs over something meaningful. I'm surprised to see that some DMs don't.

That's kind of my point. I have played in few games where CHA was ever asked for. GMs I've played with seldom ask. If I sound like a well-spoken gentleman talking to somebody, the GM buys it. Because HE's convinced. He forgets to make a roll of it.


The only times it ever clashes, is when a PC you know has a low CHA and the player goes into eloquent speech mode to convince somebody. But then somebody usually points out the "dude, no way you're 5 CHA PC would ever say that!" and it gets retracted and redacted as if he never said it.

 

[Hereticus]

Can charisma be something more than just dump stat?

Bluff
Diplomacy
Intimidation
Streetwise

Four very good reasons to respect your Charisma.

As my Wizard hit 6th level, I chose the Disguise spell. At 8th level I chose the skill training in Bluff feat.

The more a game values intrigue and planning over pure hack and slash, the more valuable Charisma is.

 

[Hereticus]

A stat is a dump stat if it's use is not required in your game.

There are two kinds of "dump stats".

The first is the kind that individual players do not care about. Some players keep one stat deliberately low, to add character to the character.

The second is the kind that DMs ignore, and that IMVHO is a loss to the game when it happens.