Can Clerics Forego Spell Preparation Like Wizards?

[HeavyG]

...how can you not like a class that can be better than a fighter at fighting, with the right spells, better than a Wizard at casting (Harm chains, Miracles, etc.), doesn't need a spellbook, has access to ALL his spells at once, can heal, good hitdie, great saves, huge church support network, turns undead...all while wearing armor?

But, I digress, the benefits of being a cleric has been visited many times before and is not the topic of this conversation. Just got a little excited there.

Well, in my defense, the party fighter is very much oriented on defense and not offense (he can pump his AC up to something like 44 at 12th level). Sure I could do more damage than him but I could never last as long against powerful melee opponents. The new player joining next game will be able to do much more damage than I'll ever be able to with his offense-oriented fighter.

And I definitely can't beat the Sorcerer at spellcasting. He casts Firebrand like there's no tomorrow.

Also, I don't have a huge church support and I can't turn undead very well. You gotta have some weakness.

 

[Larcen]

... You gotta have some weakness.

Ha! Well, I bet they dig all those Extended spells you use. Besides, with clerics it's not one individual thing..it's the PACKAGE deal that makes them great. Kinda like the whole is greater than the sum of all it's parts....or something like that!

Say, what does a Firebrand spell do and where is it from?

 

[Victim]

A cleric isn't better at fighting than a fighter or better at casting than a wiz/sor when he needs to keep bull's str, greater magic weapon, up on 2 other characters. On average, fighting type characters will get more use out of the best buffing spells, so by the time everyone else gets their spells, the cleric won't have enough slots left to become a combat machine.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'm in the clerics can, could, and the sages ruling is inline with the rules as written camp. I've said it for ages since this quesiton was 1st asked even. I don't think clerics need it, I think clerics are way, way, way too powerful even without this benefit. I'm actually banned from playing a cleric in my current game since the DM thinks that even without me trying I'll outclass everyone else.

And heavyG that extened,extended,empowered spell lasts for 36 hours not 48. Each extend doubles the based on original spell. So 12 hours+12+12, not (12x2)x2=48.

Still though they are mad powerful as is. The cleric of St. Cuthbert I played in my NY game just was sick I buffed my self, and made some cool buff magic items for the fighter. I ended up doing close to the damage the fighter did in a fight, but thanks to magic vestment/magic vestment on mithral full plate/large shield, good dex, ring of defleciton etc my AC was absurb. Not sure what weapon you use but me I used a club, and with magic weapon, and one of the thorn type spells going on it I had +15 to damage from magic, then another boost from my str, then its base 1d6, plus another 1d6 since it was a flaming weapon.(str and destruction domain could make one rounds of attacks really ugly) And then all my spells woo-hoo, by the way harm+quickened cause moderate wounds=virtual instant death.

 

[HeavyG]

And heavyG that extened,extended,empowered spell lasts for 36 hours not 48. Each extend doubles the based on original spell. So 12 hours+12+12, not (12x2)x2=48.

Not when you use a bead of karma to give you +4 caster level for 10 minutes which happens to be when I cast all my extended buff spells.

Hey, that just reminded me : My weapon, armor and shield should be +5 when buffed (because of the bead), not +4 !

Also, I chose not to make my sword wooden just so I could cast Spikes on it. That would have been going too far.

 

[HeavyG]

Say, what does a Firebrand spell do and where is it from?

Short answer : In effect, it's like a 5th level fireball that only affect enemies and can do up to 15d6 damage. It's from Magic of Faerun.

There's a thread about it right now except the thread starter called it 'Flame Brand'.

 

[dcollins]

Saying that the Sage is creating new rules in this case is simply untrue.

I really can't agree with that.

Does the PH say that unused spell slots can be filled later? No.

Does the PH specify a time for preparing unused spell slots? No. (The Sage clearly created the new rule of 15 minutes, borrowing it from arcane spellcasters).

Does the PH in fact say, "A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day" (on p. 156)? Yes.

Distinguishing between "receiving" and "preparing" of divine spells does not exist in the PH; the Sage's answer is the first such suggestion, and cannot point to any support in the book.

Calling it a rule that the PH "implies" and "started to say but never finished" is not persuasive.

 

[Caliban]

I really can't agree with that.

Does the PH say that unused spell slots can be filled later? No.

Does the PHB say that you can choose not to prepare all your spells at once? Yes.

Does the PH specify a time for preparing unused spell slots? No. (The Sage clearly created the new rule of 15 minutes, borrowing it from arcane spellcasters).

Does the PHB state that the time for preparing spells is the same as that of a wizard? Yes.

The Sage very clearly did not "create" a new rule, since even you admit that the rule already exists in the PHB for wizards. Since the cleric section states that it takes clerics just as long to prepare spells as a wizard (1 hour), and both clerics and wizards can choose to leave spell slots empty, it's pretty clear that filling that empty spell slot would take just as long for a cleric as for a wizard.

Does the PH in fact say, "A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day" (on p. 156)? Yes.

Does the PHB in fact also says that the cleric does not have to prepare all their spells at once? Yes.

Distinguishing between "receiving" and "preparing" of divine spells does not exist in the PH; the Sage's answer is the first such suggestion, and cannot point to any support in the book.

Untrue, as I've pointed out.

Calling it a rule that the PH "implies" and "started to say but never finished" is not persuasive.

Only because you don't like the rule. It's ok not to like the rule, but blaming it on the Sage is uncalled for in this instance. The Sage was doing his job: clarifying an unclear section fo the PHB.

The section on gaining Divine spells states that you prepare spells ahead of time like a wizard and then goes on to say that you don't have to prepare them all at once. It does not give any specifics for preparing them afterward. In the absence of such specifics, the most likely assumption is that it works the same way as with wizards. The Sage merely confirmed that this is in fact true.

 

[Caliban]

.

 

[Artoomis]

Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards, but with a few differences.

Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, divine spellcasters do not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time usually is associated with some daily event. Dawn, dusk, noon, or midnight are common choices. Some deities set the time or impose other special conditions for granting spells to their clerics. If some event prevents the character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment in which to perform the preparation. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character's mind is only considered fresh during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

dcollins: Taking everything in context, I fail to see how Caliban is wrong. It looks pretty clear to me when you look at everything all together.

What the PH specifically does say is:

1. Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards, but with a few differences. [In other words, see "Wizards" to figure out anything left in doubt in this section]

2. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.

3. He cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

What they left out was how to fill those empty slots that are not from casting or abandoning a previously prepared spell. Since clerics "prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards" we must be expected to go to the wizards spell preparation section to figure this out - that's what the Sage clarified.

Convinced?