Can Clerics Forego Spell Preparation Like Wizards?

[HeavyG]

HeavyG, that rocks! THAT is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about doing. And, as good as the Extended spells are, can you see all the awesome stuff you can do with these empty slots at bedtime with the Persistent feat?

I know !

I'm starting to like playing a cleric.

Persistent spells will only last for 24 hours, though, which means you'll probably only have 12 hours or so of use the next day.

Also, right now, I'm kinda going easy on the DM since it's his first high-level campaign and all but if it becomes too hard, Persistent Divine Favor here I come. I already fight as well as the group's fighter when I have my spells up so I don't want to overshadow him unless it's necessary y'know ?

 

[Artoomis]

Just make sure you cast them at least 8 hours before you pray the next day or you don't get them back. I hate 3rd watch ambushes. They ruin the whole next day! Guess with this "new" tactic, you can always just pray again 8 hours after you cast that spell to get it back. Not too shabby

Nope, sorry. No can do. If you are a cleric you pray ata specific time of day or as soon after that as possible. If you use up spells within 8 hours before you need to pray, you don't get those slots the next day.

 

[Rel]

I too think that this ruling by the Sage runs contradictory to what is in the PHB. I think it makes a powerful class even more powerful and it robs some of the unique flavor from Clerics. I like the idea that there are specific rituals (including performing them at a precise time of day) surrounding the acquisition of Cleric spells. If they can just do it "whenever", it seems to fly in the face of whatever comands the deity gives about prayer for spells.

So I will continue to make the Clerics in my campaign stick to the proper time of day. I will however mention that I let Druids fill slots later because they worship "Nature" and not a specific god. Nature is available pretty much 24/7 IMC. YMMV.

 

[HeavyG]

What we have here is a solid statement contradicting an inferred statement.

Inferred Statement - A cleric does not have to prepare all of his spells at once. The inferred statement is that a spell can then be prepared at a later time in the day.

Solid Statement - PH p. 156, "... the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells... if the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells."

I think some people might be confusing praying to receive your spells with preparing them.

Here's what happens as far as I know :
(Disclaimer : I can't reference my books right now so please tell me if my interpretation is contradicted by the rules.)



Let's say you pray at sunrise.

The sun rises. You pray your god, ask him to grant you your spells. He gives you a nice big lump of magical energy (empty spell slots in game terms). You thank him.

Then, you prepare your spells, just like arcane casters, which imply that you cast them partially etc. This fills up your free slots with prepared spells. You are not obligated to prepare your spells right after praying for your daily allowance of spells, and you can keep some slots free to prepare later, exactly like a wizard.

The problem is the inferred part. Nothing in the first statement tells you that you can pray at a later time to fill the slot.
This leads to the question why the rules say a cleric does not have to prepare all of his spells at once. I do not know the answer to this. How long does a cleric have to pray to get spells? Maybe the rule allows a cleric to skip new spells that day if he is in a hurry and doesnt have time for all that morning prayer.

Note that your solid statement says nothing about preparing spells, only receiving them.

My interpretation is in line will both your statements, IMO.

 

[Larcen]

Persistent spells will only last for 24 hours, though, which means you'll probably only have 12 hours or so of use the next day.

Why only 12 hours? Assuming you did the 15 minute trick just before going to bed, wouldn't it stay up until that same time the next day?

In other words, say the party camps out for the night at 11pm. You cast Persistent Divine Favor before going to sleep. It would be up ALL NEXT DAY, until 11pm! Right? How cool is that? Assuming you go to bed at the same time everyday, the spell will be up the entire waking hours...everyday.

 

[Caliban]

The sages ruling is not contradictory to what's in the PHB. the PHB very clearly states that the cleric isn't required to prepare all their spells at once. It then further states that they can't fill a slot that was emptied by casting a spell.

They can only refresh their spell slots once per day, during their designated prayer time. That's normally when they prepare all their spells, but they aren't required to.

This implies that they can fill an empty spell slot at some point after their normal prayer time, as long as it's one they left empty on purpose and not one that was emptied by them casting a spell.

The Sage merely confirmed what the PHB started to say but never finished: Clerics can prepare spells using spell slots deliberately left empty when they refreshed their spell slots (either through prayer or rest).

Saying that the Sage is creating new rules in this case is simply untrue.

 

[HeavyG]

Why only 12 hours? Assuming you did the 15 minute trick just before going to bed, wouldn't it stay up until that same time the next day?

First of all, your character doesn't have a stopwatch to tell him it's now 10:30 and he has 8.5 hours before his morning prayers. So, not taking any chances, you prepare them a few hours before sleep.

Then, 10 hours to sleep (assuming everybody sleeps 8 hours and there are watches to keep).

Then, 1 hours to prepare spells.

Then, you eat breakfast, pack up your things, wash up a bit. About another hour here.

That gives you about 12 hours in the day of actual use for your spell (which is still all day long until you make camp again).

But it's only a ballpark figure.

I thus prefer extended spells with 1 hour/lvl durations since they can last more than 1 day.

 

[Larcen]

Speaking of this...

...I don't want to overshadow him...

...how can you not like a class that can be better than a fighter at fighting, with the right spells, better than a Wizard at casting (Harm chains, Miracles, etc.), doesn't need a spellbook, has access to ALL his spells at once, can heal, good hitdie, great saves, huge church support network, turns undead...all while wearing armor?

But, I digress, the benefits of being a cleric has been visited many times before and is not the topic of this conversation. Just got a little excited there.

 

[Larcen]

First of all, your character doesn't have a stopwatch to tell him it's now 10:30 and he has 8.5 hours before his morning prayers. So, not taking any chances, you prepare them a few hours before sleep.

Then, 10 hours to sleep (assuming everybody sleeps 8 hours and there are watches to keep).

Then, 1 hours to prepare spells.

Then, you eat breakfast, pack up your things, wash up a bit. About another hour here.

That gives you about 12 hours in the day of actual use for your spell (which is still all day long until you make camp again).

But it's only a ballpark figure.

I thus prefer extended spells with 1 hour/lvl durations since they can last more than 1 day.

I see. Well, sure, you may not be actively adventuring and making good use of the spell during all that time, but it IS there the whole day, whether you are using it or not. Just makes me feel good...never know when those wandering beasties will show up while you are frying some eggs.

(Edit: Oh wait, who needs to fry some eggs when you got Create Food and Water?)

 

[IceBear]

The sages ruling is not contradictory to what's in the PHB. the PHB very clearly states that the cleric isn't required to prepare all their spells at once. It then further states that they can't fill a slot that was emptied by casting a spell.

They can only refresh their spell slots once per day, during their designated prayer time. That's normally when they prepare all their spells, but they aren't required to.

This implies that they can fill an empty spell slot at some point after their normal prayer time, as long as it's one they left empty on purpose and not one that was emptied by them casting a spell.

The Sage merely confirmed what the PHB started to say but never finished: Clerics can prepare spells using spell slots deliberately left empty when they refreshed their spell slots (either through prayer or rest).

Saying that the Sage is creating new rules in this case is simply untrue.

I agree.

IceBear