Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
Why is it so hard to imagine pulling and sliding w/o a mat? The player describe the effect they are goping for, the DM complies.
Can D&D be played without all the mini rules?
- Thread starter Rolemancer
- Start date
James McMurray
First Post
ainatan said:
Sure, but you'd be better off playing a game designed for that like Amber or Nobilis. Not sure how well Nobilis would handle a major power downgrade to the lower levels of D&D, but Amber could do it fairly easily.
Thasmodious
First Post
Many, many groups, including mine, have played with miniatures since the 1e/BD&D days. Being as miniatures were the inspiration for the game in the first place, it is a bit off base to claim that 1e and 2e were miniature free games of imagination that the evil 3e killed with a lead longsword. 3e saw the game adapt to the way the majority of people played D&D.
The cornerstone of imagination is not a lack of visual aids and the use of visual aids does not squash imagination. Playing the game without miniatures is easy to do in any edition you want to, go ahead. But don't sit there and imply that using miniatures is some inferior, imagination squashing, n00b version of fantasy RPGs.
Actually, with statements like this:
I'd say it's you who seems to be imaginatively challenged and not the legions of gamers who use miniatures and battlemats to enhance their gaming experience.
The cornerstone of imagination is not a lack of visual aids and the use of visual aids does not squash imagination. Playing the game without miniatures is easy to do in any edition you want to, go ahead. But don't sit there and imply that using miniatures is some inferior, imagination squashing, n00b version of fantasy RPGs.
Actually, with statements like this:
I'd say it's you who seems to be imaginatively challenged and not the legions of gamers who use miniatures and battlemats to enhance their gaming experience.
krakenstar
First Post
I'm a miniature type player, but I've played campaigns where minis weren't used alot (mostly outdoor/storyline heavy). So I could be talking out of turns.
I think with 4E you'll miss out on a lot of the finer points of combat if you don't have something to represent positioning in a more concrete form. You can go fuzzy and w/o a battlemap, but not only does the GM have to really have a good 3D skills in his head, so do all the players.
I'm guilty of the above. For me it gets a lot harder to visualize concretely as the size of the combatants increase. For a couple others in my group, they are not keen on using maps - they sorta do it to appease us "concrete" types.
But a lot more of the benefits of 4E powers actually come in the form of movement compared to the previous editions. I'm not talking about things like blinking/teleport/tree stride/d-door, but seemingly trivial extra 5' or 10' movement while you're doing something else. It translates to big advantages used in the right situation. Almost like watching a skill boxer shifting his angle/stance and all of a sudden cornering his opponent. I think for those might be lost in the translation.
To be honest, 4E might not be the optimum game for you if playing with minis takes the "love" away from the game. Have you tried Exalted? You get bonuses to attack if you describe your actions with flare! That might be a ruleset that echo your playstyle more.
I think with 4E you'll miss out on a lot of the finer points of combat if you don't have something to represent positioning in a more concrete form. You can go fuzzy and w/o a battlemap, but not only does the GM have to really have a good 3D skills in his head, so do all the players.
Rolemancer said:
I'm guilty of the above. For me it gets a lot harder to visualize concretely as the size of the combatants increase. For a couple others in my group, they are not keen on using maps - they sorta do it to appease us "concrete" types.
But a lot more of the benefits of 4E powers actually come in the form of movement compared to the previous editions. I'm not talking about things like blinking/teleport/tree stride/d-door, but seemingly trivial extra 5' or 10' movement while you're doing something else. It translates to big advantages used in the right situation. Almost like watching a skill boxer shifting his angle/stance and all of a sudden cornering his opponent. I think for those might be lost in the translation.
To be honest, 4E might not be the optimum game for you if playing with minis takes the "love" away from the game. Have you tried Exalted? You get bonuses to attack if you describe your actions with flare! That might be a ruleset that echo your playstyle more.
Tony Vargas
Legend
You could aproach it two ways.Rolemancer said:
You could try to adjust your attitude and visualize what's happening in spite of the lumps of plastic. Require that any successful use of a power be accompanied by a good, dramatic description of it. Not just "I move 2 because it's a nimble strike and do my sneak attack damage since I'm in a flanking position which gives me combat advantage." But, "as he turns his attention to Regdar, I slip in and plant a dagger between his ribs!" If you can't visualize your exploit or power in a way consistent with the feel of the campaign (be it a sword & sorcery, high fantasy, or action movie feel), you don't get to use that exploit. This would force players to think beyond the grid. Do the same for the monsters, providing dramatic descriptions of thier abilities. And, remember, that means making the PCs look heroic and having the players feel you're being fair, with your dramatic description, even as the monster kicks thier asses when it's nastiest power has recharged.
Alternately, if you really can't stand the grid, you can just treat powers that slide, push or pull opponents more abstractly. The player just has to ask the DM who he can reach, or how many enemies he can affect with an area attack. "I want to use my Dragonborn breath power, I've got the expanded feat, so it's big - how many minions can a catch in it?" You just figure, well there are eight minions, I wouldn't want him to be able to hit half, but he does have the feat so.. "Three, you could get the two Tordek is fighting, also, because of your expanded breath weapon, but he'd get caught in it, too." You use story considerations and the relative strength of the power (and whether it's encounter or daily) rather than grid, to answer questions about who you can attack, catch in an area, or whether you can push the bad guy into the snakepit. It might anger more tactically enclined players (I wouldn't be too happy with it, unless you were a /very/ good DM and generally found myself in accord with your judgement of story flow and drama).
Champions uses a lot of tactical movement on a hex map, but I've been in games with good GMs who were able to take the 'dramatic' aproach with no figures, and still let me feel like my character was getting the full use out of the extra movement or force wall or whatever map-dependent power he paid good character points for. Heck, I've even been able to make it work, myself, in that system, when the only space we had available just wasn't suitable for a battlemat. So I know it can work, it's just not easy.
Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
You *could* play without minis, but it'd be difficult. A lot of the secondary effects of powers give movement or deny movement to the enemy. Conditions like "slow", 'prone", and "immobilize" become less important (or completely irrelevant). Flanking and reach lose importance. Opportunity attacks become messy indeed. Wizards would have to drop area of effect attacks (fireballs and whatnot) and just stick with single-target zaps.
In short: if tactical positioning is eliminated from the game, a lot of 4e's features are nullified.
I sure wouldn't want to play that game. I *like* the tactical aspect, the joy of knocking opponents into the wizard's Lightning Cage or slipping into a flank position as a rogue. Removing those elements would make combat much less exciting.
In short: if tactical positioning is eliminated from the game, a lot of 4e's features are nullified.
I sure wouldn't want to play that game. I *like* the tactical aspect, the joy of knocking opponents into the wizard's Lightning Cage or slipping into a flank position as a rogue. Removing those elements would make combat much less exciting.
