Can I retry Open Lock? (Also Take 10/20?)

[Jeff Wilder]

It's in the rulebook, but not per se in the SRD.

That's not what I actually asked, though. I was asking if it was an actual rule that you're considered to have rolled a 1, a 2, a 3, and so on.

I'm guessing it's not. I do remember seeing it in a WotC source, but I think it was just a suggestion, maybe just for illustrative purposes. I don't even think there are skill circumstances -- in cases where Take 20 is allowed -- where the specific number rolled matters.

 

[Herzog]

It's not written like that, but follows directly from the 'take 20' rules in the PH:

Since taking 20 assumes
that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did
attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for
instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap), your character
would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could
complete the task

This includes any result of a roll of '1'.

 

[Selganor]

If taking 20 means both failure and success over the course of 2 mins, and if you had the house rule that a roll of '1' meant breaking your lock picks, it would mean the PC would have to keep several backup sets of lockpicks if they intended to take 20 often

No. This houserule would disallow the use of Take 20 to open locks (because you can't use Take 20 with rolls that have negative effects if you fail).

Besides... this houserule would also make lockpicks VERY brittle, as even a grandmaster lockpicker (Open locks +30) would break a lockpick for every 20 locks picked (even if he didn't have to roll because his skill is higher than the DC of the lock)

 

[Herzog]

I agree.
The '1' was an example of what you could do.
A better houserule would be to introduce failure results based on the amount you miss the DC by.

Example:
missed by 5: Lock damaged. -1 on open lock checks with this lock
missed by 10: Lockpicks damaged. -1 on open lock checks with these lockpicks
missed by 15: lock ruined. can't be opened, not even with original keys.
missed by 20: lockpicks ruined.

Note that this would disallow take 20, since the penalties (implied when taking 20) would ruin your check, unless your bonus is high enough to 'take 1' and succeed on the lockpick check.

On the other hand, if you would introduce (non resetting) traps on failures, you can take 20, but the trap will go off.

Edit:

because you can't use Take 20 with rolls that have negative effects if you fail

No, you CAN take 20 on rolls that have negative effects if you fail, but the negative effects occur. In the particular result of the negative effect influencing the result, you are correct

 

[Runestar]

I think the bigger question is - how many times are you supposed to incur those penalties? Where do you draw the line regarding them preventing you from trying again?

The whole point to taking 20 is that it is much faster to simply say "I take 20" rather than rolling the die repeatedly until a natural 20 comes up. It seems the rules on taking 20 aren't really very consistent in this aspect.

 

[pawsplay]

I think the bigger question is - how many times are you supposed to incur those penalties? Where do you draw the line regarding them preventing you from trying again?

The whole point to taking 20 is that it is much faster to simply say "I take 20" rather than rolling the die repeatedly until a natural 20 comes up. It seems the rules on taking 20 aren't really very consistent in this aspect.

In Star Wars d20, you would take those consequences twenty times. There is no stated rule in D&D 3e as to how many failures you will incur.

 

[frankthedm]

I think the bigger question is - how many times are you supposed to incur those penalties? Where do you draw the line regarding them preventing you from trying again?

The line is drawn the moment there is a consequence for failure. Also take note that is if the skill itself has said consequences, regardless of the character's skill.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task.

 

[Runestar]

In Star Wars d20, you would take those consequences twenty times. There is no stated rule in D&D 3e as to how many failures you will incur.

Shouldn't it be nineteen? Assuming the last one is a success...

Though I suppose it is easier to multiply something by 20 than by 19...

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task.

How many times is the question. If as mentioned above, there was a rule where failing an open lock check by so much results in your lockpick breaking, how many lockpicks would you need to replace? Or is this a scenario where taking 20 is just not possible?

Or lets say a failed attempt triggers a trap on the door which resets each round. If I take 20, how many times will I take damage from the trap? Once, 19 or 20 times?

 

[frankthedm]

How many times is the question. If as mentioned above, there was a rule where failing an open lock check by so much results in your lockpick breaking, how many lockpicks would you need to replace? Or is this a scenario where taking 20 is just not possible?

Correct, taking 20 in that situation is just not possible.

Or lets say a failed attempt triggers a trap on the door which resets each round. If I take 20, how many times will I take damage from the trap? Once, 19 or 20 times?

if there is a consequence for failing, you don't get to take 20. How that gets expressed "in game" is left vague.

 

[Herzog]

more pricise, if there is a consequence for failing, you can take 20, but the failure effect occurs.
If there is a consequence for failing every retry , you can not take 20, for exactly the reason you specify: there is no way to determine how many times you failed, therefore the take 20 cannot be resolved. therefore, you have to roll until you have a 20 (or, until you beat the DC) , taking the failure consequence on each failed roll.