Can Locate Creature locate dopplegangers?

[Wolfwood2]

As of last session, we've started having some problems with dopplegangers in a big city. I am thinking that we should just acquire a scroll of Locate Creature and use it to hunt down the nearest doppleganger for interrogation. (Well, ideally we would be able to use it to find their base.)

Is there any particular reason this wouldn't work? Locate Creature can find a particular type of creature. It's specifically fooled by Polymorph, but dopplegangers use Change Shape, not Polymorph.

 

[frankthedm]

Is there any particular reason this wouldn't work?

A few.

Locate Creature can find a particular type of creature.

No, it can't just single out Monstrous humaniods.

It cannot find a creature of a certain type.

Now IF you have already seen a doppleganger within 30'.

The spell can locate a creature of a specific kind or a specific creature known to you. It cannot find a creature of a certain type. To find a kind of creature, you must have seen such a creature up close (within 30 feet) at least once.

IMHO, the Doppleganger's true form has to have been seen to locate "Dopplegangers" in general. Otherwise you can locate the being you think was a doppleganger.

It's specifically fooled by Polymorph, but dopplegangers use Change Shape, not Polymorph.

Technicly you are right on this one, but don't be surprised if the DM goes the "If it quacks like a duck..." reasoning.

Also the running water clause throws in some more wrinkles.

Locate Creature
Divination
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 10 min./level

This spell functions like locate object, except this spell locates a known or familiar creature.

You slowly turn and sense when you are facing in the direction of the creature to be located, provided it is within range. You also know in which direction the creature is moving, if any.

The spell can locate a creature of a specific kind or a specific creature known to you. It cannot find a creature of a certain type. To find a kind of creature, you must have seen such a creature up close (within 30 feet) at least once.

Running water blocks the spell. It cannot detect objects. It can be fooled by mislead, nondetection, and polymorph spells.

Material Component
A bit of fur from a bloodhound.

 

[Wolfwood2]

A few.
No, it can't just single out Monstrous humaniods.

Serves me right for using the word 'type' carelessly when it is a term of art within D&D.

Now IF you have already seen a doppleganger within 30'.

We have a couple of doppleganger corpses to study as closely as we want. We are interested in finding any living ones that may be out there. (A corpse is of course an object and not a creature and will not ping on the spell.)

IMHO, the Doppleganger's true form has to have been seen to locate "Dopplegangers" in general. Otherwise you can locate the being you think was a doppleganger.

Yeah, that's the situation we are in. We have a doppleganger try to mess with us on two separate occasions and killed each individual. There is no reason to think that two is all the dopplegangers out there.

Technicly you are right on this one, but don't be surprised if the DM goes the "If it quacks like a duck..." reasoning.

See, here's the thing. I know that a lot of creatures used to have a Polymorph at Will ability (or an ability that referenced polymorph), which has been updated to Change Shape as the polymorph rules were slowly excised from the game. Locate Creature has not, as far as I know, been updated. Iit still references Polymorph.

However, were dopplegangers one of the ones that changed, or have they always had Change Shape as opposed to polymorph? If they have always had change shape, it seems to me that the original intent of the rules was that dopplegangers should be findable by means of the spell.

Also the running water clause throws in some more wrinkles.

The DM has leeway to use the clause to declare that it doesn't work. But given that we're in a city, it's not going to be because of any neutral, simulationist, "I have already charted all the running water sources within the city and see that their carefully plotted map course over the 70 minute duration of the spell will not allow them to locate any dopplegangers during the time duration of the spell, whose location at that time I have also already decided."

It's going to be because the DM decided he didn't want the spell to work.

 

[frankthedm]

The DM has leeway to use the clause to declare that it doesn't work. But given that we're in a city, it's not going to be because of any neutral, simulationist, "I have already charted all the running water sources within the city and see that their carefully plotted map course over the 70 minute duration of the spell will not allow them to locate any dopplegangers during the time duration of the spell, whose location at that time I have also already decided."

It's going to be because the DM decided he didn't want the spell to work.

It will fail if the ''den" is in the sewers.

It will fail if the dopplegangers operate in groups that only occasionally meet up at certain times.

It will fail if the city is very large.

BTW, here is the other half of the spell since Locate creature refernces Locate object.

Locate Object
Divination
Level: Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2, Travel 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Circle, centered on you, with a radius of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You sense the direction of a well-known or clearly visualized object. You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest one of its kind if more than one is within range. Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination).

The spell is blocked by even a thin sheet of lead. Creatures cannot be found by this spell. Polymorph any object fools it.

Arcane Focus
A forked twig.

 

[Meeki]

There is a spell in the book of eldritch might series that functions similar. I believe it is called serpent hunter, or something to that effect. Basically it summons a ghost like serpent that finds the nearest creature type you designate and delivers a poison to it. Now you have to follow the serpent and it only finds the nearest one but I believe it may work.

 

[eamon]

If I were the DM, I'd definitely let Change Shape and any other Alternate Form based ability, and even the changelings minor shapechange ability fool Locate Creature. Since the whole polymorph debacle, that rule has fractured into ever more different variants. If a reference seems to be referencing shape changing in general but says polymorph, I'd say it's pretty safe to say it's an anachronism of all those changes.

Further, Locate Creature says it's like Locate object, which more clearly defines what happens: you need a "specific and accurate mental image", also phrased as "a well-known or clearly visualized object" - and most relevantly: "if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails."

It's finding a creature based on your visual mental image, and not some intrinsic type. (Locate creature even mentions that it can't find a type, only a kind, which is probably a round-about and confusing way of saying something similar).

 

[Wolfwood2]

Further, Locate Creature says it's like Locate object, which more clearly defines what happens: you need a "specific and accurate mental image", also phrased as "a well-known or clearly visualized object" - and most relevantly: "if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails."

It's finding a creature based on your visual mental image, and not some intrinsic type. (Locate creature even mentions that it can't find a type, only a kind, which is probably a round-about and confusing way of saying something similar).

Now hold on. It's pretty clear from the spell description that if you were looking for the closest minotaur, and had seen a minotaur before, you could find the closest minotaur with no problem. Otherwise what does "a kind" even mean?

The only question is if the change shape ability of the doppleganger can fool the spell, or if the spell 'knows' what it really looks like.

 

[Wolfwood2]

It will fail if the ''den" is in the sewers.

It will fail if the dopplegangers operate in groups that only occasionally meet up at certain times.

It will fail if the city is very large.

It will fail if the den is in the sewers and all the dopplegangers happen to be in the sewers during the time period the spell is active. Only meeting up at certain times won't make it fail exactly, but it would mean locating only one doppleganger.

It will fail if the city is large and no dopplegangers can be found in the (quite extensive) area that is being searched during the spell duration.

There's even a possibility that the spell might succeed despite change shape fooling it, if a doppleganger is lounging in its natural form somewhere safe.

Like I said, it'll largely fail (or succeed) if the DM wants it to, as it depends on factors that are unlikely to be predetermined.

However, knowing if it can be fooled by Change Shape will certainly give the DM more input on whether it is reasonable that the spell should work.

BTW, here is the other half of the spell since Locate creature refernces Locate object.

We might end up having the cleric use this one, as we have found a strange key. If there are multiple copies of this strange key, we could take the existing one out of range and look for other copies.

Would sticking the strange key in a bag of holding take it out of range, or would we have to fly it up higher than the spell radius? Either is doable.

 

[frankthedm]

Would sticking the strange key in a bag of holding take it out of range, or would we have to fly it up higher than the spell radius? Either is doable.

You do know fly has a duration measured in minutes? it takes a whole minute to climb to 600' feet. 60'/action gets halved when flying up. double move means 60' round.

Bag of holding is safer and more fool proof.

 

[Wolfwood2]

You do know fly has a duration measured in minutes? it takes a whole minute to climb to 600' feet. 60'/action gets halved when flying up. double move means 60' round.

Bag of holding is safer and more fool proof.

I didn't say we'd use the Fly spell. My paladin has a hippogriff mount. Circling up to 700 feet would be the work of a minute or two.