I think he got the number wrong. In 1e the 16 Con was the best bonus wise for non fighters. So a cleric with an 18 con still only gets the +2 HP per level and not the +4.
This assumes I'm recalling these details correctly.
You're 100% right.
Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?
- Thread starter thecasualoblivion
- Start date
You're 100% right.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Not a sword, they're using spiked chains -- a weapon which is both Finessable, and amenable to two-handed Power Attack.
If you care, it was discussed at length in the CharOp forum back when WotC had usable forums. The discussion is still there, though it may be annoyingly hard to find, since their forums are now painful to use.
Nobody ever rolls a "raw potential" check. They do roll attacks, and they do roll Climb / Jump / Swim checks.
What I'm talking about are observable effects within the game world.
Cheers, -- N
PS: Also, I forked a thread about historical balance here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...8-game-balance-study-imperfection-forked.html
Well, a spiked chain for a Small sized creature does on average 3.5 points of damage before other mods, while the same weapon sized for a Medium sized creature does 5 points of damage on average- again, .5 more than that one point swing the hafling gets for finessing the weapon.
(FWIW, I've never visited WotCs CharOps boards...heck, I haven't been to WotC's site in a couple of years except to find the occasional link to a 3.5 PrCl, like the modified Kineticist in Mind's Eye...and I don't see a pressing need to change that anytime soon.)
And what I'm talking about is the precursors to those effects. The starting conditions.
Sepulchrave II
Legend
1) If a Gnome were as tall as a 6ft. man, he would weigh 325lbs.
Conclusion: Gnomes are either very fat, or extraordinarily dense.
2) If a Goliath were as short as a 6ft. man, he would weigh 163lbs.
Conclusion: Goliaths are rather skinny, or have hollow bones.
Conclusion: Gnomes are either very fat, or extraordinarily dense.
2) If a Goliath were as short as a 6ft. man, he would weigh 163lbs.
Conclusion: Goliaths are rather skinny, or have hollow bones.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
I like this, because it fits with how I've always had them (and Dwarves) anyway: very dense, and somewhat burly.
Throw 'em in water and they sink.
Lan-"the Dwarven word for boat is the same as the Dwarven word for vomit"-efan
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
No. You're talking about one very bad metric, strength score, which is practically meaningless.
Since you missed most of my point last time, let's try this another way....
Not every muscle in the body gives a hoot about the strength score.
Should the Tyrannosaurus Rex be awesome at the bench press because it has a high strength score? How about a purple worm's leg press?
I don't have an MM of any edition in front of me, but I imagine one of those two critters above has a higher strength score than the other... but what the heck does that mean?
You're being very selective about when you apply verisimilitude and pseudo-physics. These hand waves sort of work when you're comparing halflings to goliaths, but the system as a whole doesn't really hold together that well.
My response in this thread has consistently been: if it is practically meaningless, get rid of it. Period. Fold those stat modifiers into skill, feat, power and class modifiers that vary based on race.
Didn't miss your point at all.
Your earlier example of chimp bite strength is already folded into the game in other mechanics: a creature's bite damage.
Throughout the history of D&D- 4Ed included- when you're talking about Str as a stat, you're talking about skeletomuscular strength: what kind of work your main limbs and torso can do. Lifting. Dragging. Pushing. In combat, punching and kicking power.
(Sure, jaws and their muscles are part of the skeletomuscular system, but as pointed out above, they've been given their own mechanic.)
Basically? One is a bit more capable in melee combat and able to lift/move/carry heavier burdens.
If you are going to design a massively multiple source book game, like 4E, and have it run without serious tweaks at a table then some common design assumptions are needed. If Minotaurs had +8 to strength then every strength based power woould need to be re-evaluated relative to PCs being able to start with a 26 (as opposed to a 20).
There are ways around this. The AD&D (1E and, to some extent, 2E) solution was to make few things dependent on ability scores. Strength was a partial exception because it scaled so high 9as was constitution for Fighters; dexterity bonuses -- in contrast -- rapidly flattened). But with strength there were core magic items (guantlets of Ogre Power) that made an 18/00 strength (+3, +6) attainable for a high level fighter.
Another option is to balance the system across a more diverse set of scores; that is a lot easier to do with a small number of books (ideally a single players handbook) where you can work through all of the permutations. I suspect that is the trick for point systems like Champions.
Or you can restrict options to a narrow set of races. In the extreme is the "human-only" games like Mage (from White Wolf) or Ars Magica.
Finally, you can make focus very costly. If the race has a +8 strength and -4 dexterity that could just about even out if the system sets bonuses and penalties appropriately (slow but strong could be evenly matched by fast but weak).
The 4E solution simply assumes that races will ahve either a +0 or +2 in any relevant ability score. So you baalnce across these two possibilities. This means that only the racial powers are an avenue to allow power creep and they are much easier to evaluate by comparision (it this nice new ability stronger or weaker than Fey Step?).
It's true that you lose some flavor with these decisions. But a lesson of games that have tried to allow radically different racial power levels is that balance is very hard to maintain without active DM involvement. For a very experienced DM, this may not be an issue. But for a mass market system (intended for many, many books) I tend to agree that this is a feature and not a bug.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Here's my problem, Dannyalcatraz.
You keep talking as if "lifting, dragging, and pushing" as well as all the other "strength based" skills are actually tightly related.
They are not, not even within one individual, much less across species. And they have a tangential relationship to combat effectiveness at best.
You're saying that a desire to balance one aspect of the strength score resulted in bad flavor effects.
I'm saying that those flavor effects were always an unmitigated disaster. That being the case... at least races are balanced now, and the flavor effects are no more or less silly than they have ever been.
As someone mentioned... apparently small races are made out of lead. I assume that's due to the designers licking too many old miniatures. You're pretending this stuff used to make sense, and that stopped. In truth, it never held up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
You keep talking as if "lifting, dragging, and pushing" as well as all the other "strength based" skills are actually tightly related.
They are not, not even within one individual, much less across species. And they have a tangential relationship to combat effectiveness at best.
You're saying that a desire to balance one aspect of the strength score resulted in bad flavor effects.
I'm saying that those flavor effects were always an unmitigated disaster. That being the case... at least races are balanced now, and the flavor effects are no more or less silly than they have ever been.
As someone mentioned... apparently small races are made out of lead. I assume that's due to the designers licking too many old miniatures. You're pretending this stuff used to make sense, and that stopped. In truth, it never held up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
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Or...
...they could have let Goliaths keep Powerful Build as part of their racial makeup- only they and Half-Giants in the previous incarnation had this ability- and it could have been kept rare in 4Ed (instead of it simply being excised). This would have reflected beings who were very strong, but not much stronger than Dragonborn or Half Orcs (more lean, slow-twitch muscle as opposed to bulky, fast-twitch muscle), but who, by dint of sheer size had sufficient leverage to wield weapons the next size up.
...Minotaurs could have had racial utility or encounter powers that reflected great strength that was only occasionally available (instead of the Gore ability which could have been a racial feat).
...one or more of these races could have received +4 Str and nothing else for stat mods, similar to how humans got a +2 to any one stat.
IOW, there were ways within 4Ed's regime to keep these races balanced without weakening them, both mechanically and in terms of flavor/history.
...they could have let Goliaths keep Powerful Build as part of their racial makeup- only they and Half-Giants in the previous incarnation had this ability- and it could have been kept rare in 4Ed (instead of it simply being excised). This would have reflected beings who were very strong, but not much stronger than Dragonborn or Half Orcs (more lean, slow-twitch muscle as opposed to bulky, fast-twitch muscle), but who, by dint of sheer size had sufficient leverage to wield weapons the next size up.
...Minotaurs could have had racial utility or encounter powers that reflected great strength that was only occasionally available (instead of the Gore ability which could have been a racial feat).
...one or more of these races could have received +4 Str and nothing else for stat mods, similar to how humans got a +2 to any one stat.
IOW, there were ways within 4Ed's regime to keep these races balanced without weakening them, both mechanically and in terms of flavor/history.
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