D&D 5E Can this party handle these dragons?

[LightningArrow]

_________
THE PARTY, AT LEVEL 12:
- Human Abjurer: Resilient (CON), Keen Mind
- Human Tempest Cleric: Observant
- Human Thief 5/Hunter 7 (spell-less): archer, Alert
- Human Vengeance Paladin (actually level 13): sword-and-board, Shield Master, Heavy Armor Master
- Half-Elf Lore Bard

As you'll soon see, it's important to mention that the Ranger has access to Protection from Energy.
________

The enemies:
Adult Red Dragon (no lair or legendary actions)
Young Red Dragon
________

I've ran a simulation considering the party's usual tactics, and they all died, along with the young red. The adult red was left at half HP.

So I was considering reducing the young's HP by 10 and his breath weapon to 12d6 instead of 16d6. I'd also give the Paladin a Potion of Flying, but that might be too much.

For story reasons, I can't change the creatures in the encounter.

Any advice is welcome.

 

[CleverNickName]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "handle."

Defeat the dragons in combat? Probably not, but they might surprise you. Dice can be fickle.

Engage the dragons for a few rounds, then survive the retreat? Probably, especially if they go in with an escape plan.

Convince the dragons to change their minds about a particular story event? Possibly, depending on how charismatic and persuasive (or intimidating) their Paladin and Bard can be.

Convince the dragons to join the party long enough to help overthrow a greater evil? Also possible, depending on the Paladin's alignment, the Bard's persuasion, and whether or not the party has any leverage.

There are probably a dozen ways to handle this encounter, and only some of them involve combat. And all of them are kinda awesome.

 

[LightningArrow]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "handle."

Defeat the dragons in combat? Probably not, but they might surprise you. Dice can be fickle.

Engage the dragons for a few rounds, then survive the retreat? Probably, especially if they go in with an escape plan.

Convince the dragons to change their minds about a particular story event? Possibly, depending on how charismatic and persuasive (or intimidating) their Paladin and Bard can be.

Convince the dragons to join the party long enough to help overthrow a greater evil? Also possible, depending on the Paladin's alignment, the Bard's persuasion, and whether or not the party has any leverage.

There are probably a dozen ways to handle this encounter, and only some of them involve combat. And all of them are kinda awesome.

By 'handle', I mean handle it Mafia style. Even if they do escape, their plan will beca failure, and being heroes they'll feel bad.

 

[Stalker0]

With prep time anything is possible! We just had the thread about 9th level characters beating a CR 22 dragon!

That said, 2 younger dragons are much scarier than 1 old one imo. Does your party have wall spells like wall of force? Might be able to split the dragons up, in which case they can probably mow them down.

But yeah if you are worried about, make sure they have notice and prep time. I have constantly been impressed by player ingenuity when they know the obstacle they have to overcome ahead of time.

 

[CleverNickName]

I have an unpopular opinion about dragons.

A while back, there was a discussion about "disposable dragons," which later spawned a club called B.A.D.D.: Bothered About Disposable Dragons. I'm a member. In my opinion, most DMs never play dragons to their full potential...they treat dragons like just another monster to be defeated and looted, and I think they should be more than that. SO much more than that.

At my table, players whisper about dragons in hushed tones. They listen to tales of dragons in distant lands, and worry about what will happen to their land, their homes, their families, if such a horror should ever visit them. Dragons are creatures of nightmare and legend, cunning monsters of unmatched cruelty that wield powerful eldritch magic and the strength of a thousand armies. To lay eyes upon a dragon is to behold your death. They certainly don't plan to find one on purpose.

But this being the game that it is, it will happen one day. And on that day? Unless the entire battlefield has been scorched and melted into magma, unless the skies have darkened from the smoke and brimstone, unless the roar of the beast echoed off the distant mountains and the battle raged for hours, unless the last hero had to charge his burned body over his lifeless companions and slay the beast with a final, hundredth blow from the legendary Sword of Xassaxzasx...they weren't fighting a dragon. No, they were fighting some kind of bumbling, fragile lizard with bad breath.

A 9th level party defeating a CR 22 dragon? Maybe for some. But that's not how I roll.

 

[Croesus]

Will the party have access to potions of fire resistance, and/or scrolls of protection from fire? That will make a huge difference.

Also, do the dragons have to remain, or can they fly away, returning a day (or three) later?

My players took on an adult green dragon, but were forewarned. They all had protection from poison (remarkably, the spell is not concentration). The dragon was guarding its hoard, so was unwilling to flee. It's minor servants (winged snakes) were dropped in the first couple rounds. And the party had two strong ranged characters, so the dragon couldn't simply remain at a distance. One character was dropped and couple others were at about 25% hit points, but really, the fight wasn't very close. Without lair actions, the dragon just couldn't keep up with the five party members.

 

[Mort]

Lots of relevant questions already asked - big question as to the fire resistance of the party!

One I haven't seen asked: What is the relevant terrain?

If it's open ground where the dragons can fly and strafe the party (not to mention easily escape if things get even a little tight) - the group is hosed.

If it's enclosed, the group may be better off, though that too will depend on how much they rely on maneuverability.

On paper, this is a deadly encounter - made more so by the fact that there are 2 creatures (meaning the party has to split their attention and attacks) without significant luck or other outside factors, significant death toll and even a TPK are to be expected.

Maybe have the group find a wall of force scroll (assuming the mage doesn't have it already) or to really make the fight easier, a force cage scroll (That may actually be too much - though the mage might not be able to actually get the spell cast, it'll require a check).

 

[Nevvur]

Another idea is to stagger the fights a bit. Maybe if you initiate the fight with just the young dragon, and have the ancient dragon appear a round or two later? Like maybe it was flying 500 feet overhead. I suspect your party could alpha strike down the young in 1 round. The ancient can witness its death and become extra ragey.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6805992]LightningArrow[/MENTION] It looks like an exciting challenge; you've already removed Lair/Legendary Actions, so I'd suggest not nerfing the dragons any further.

Do any of the PCs (particularly the Lore Bard) have access to the earthbind 2nd-level spell from the Elemental Evil Player's Companion? That single spell could drastically improve their odds by forcing one of the dragons into melee.

Also, what is their long range (i.e. over 60 feet of the adult's breath weapon) capability? I see that being important as the two dragons alternate strafing runs of breath weapon against the party.

I'd also recommend spicing up the encounter with some interesting twists/complications, such as the dragon's strafing run leaving what's effectively a wall of fire in its wake separating the party.

 

[Oofta]

It depends on so many factors it's hard to tell. Using my handy-dandy player equivalent level encounter guideline it comes up with 125% deadly (hard is up to 99%). So certainly just from the numbers you're risking character death if not straight out TPK. But even that is not horrifically deadly, it's something I would throw at a group depending on how effective I think they would be against the threat. A different group I'd practically guarantee that I'd kill everyone if they didn't have a chance to flee.

So ... it all depends. There was another thread (I won't go into details, but a wish was involved and it seemed that the DM made several mistakes) were 8th level characters that defeated an ancient red dragon.

My questions:
- Are they going to know about the fight ahead of time?
- Are they going to be doing anything else between long rests, or can they go nova?
- What's the ranged attack capability?
- Can they fly?
- Can they stop movement or otherwise immobilize?

From the dragon's side of things:
- Will the dragons be able to strafe and run like they should?
- How tactically minded are you? It's OK if you're not a tactical genius, not everyone is. But it does make a difference on difficulty levels.
- Will the dragons be able to divide and conquer by focusing on one or two individuals when they aren't breathing on the entire party?

Answer yes to the first list and I would add at least a couple of levels to the PCs and it becomes a hard fight, not deadly. Throw the dragons into an environment where they can't fly away and use hit and run tactics (dragons are proficient in stealth for a reason) and I'm not even sure it's hard.

But most important: what's the goal of the encounter? Running away should always be an option, and a great way to set up a recurring villain. I know some people think the PCs should always win, always be victorious. Others would disagree. If you just want them to have bragging rights put your thumb on the scale on the side of the PCs. If you want them to learn they can't win every fight, or want to set up a recurring dragon villain you can do that as well.

Can they survive? Depends on the group. Should they? Probably. Will they? Depends on the DM and encounter setup.