Can we have a 4e variant of M&M or something like it?

OK, so I read the following and forked it:
In my opinion, encounter powers are one of the most narrative-driven aspect of the game, because they correspond so well to so much of the sort of fiction and pop culture that I use to inspire my stories (not necessarily directly in terms of setting elements or plot points, but often thematically), like fantasy and scifi novels, shows and movies, anime and comic books.

Those types of fiction overflow with terrific heroes who can do tons of amazing stuff....but who often tend to only do their cooler stuff pretty rarely, and otherwise default to a few basic moves.

Superman is the prime example of this. He has a huge assortment of powers which he can theoretically use at will and which when used to full capacity should render 95% of his enemies non-threats. For example, his upper level speed showings alone in the comics put him at much, much higher than the speed of light, which when combined with planet busting strength means he could easily throw nearly any enemy into space before it could think.

But that isn't how Superman actually fights as the story unfolds. If he's going to do something really high-end, he'll do it once a story. If he's going to use heat vision or freeze breath or x-ray vision or any of his other more esoteric powers, he'll probably do so just once or at most twice per a 22 page. comic. The rest of the time, he's mostly a fast and really strong guy who can fly and punches damn hard.

To me, that sounds a lot like how an encounter will function--the "throw them into space" move is his daily, the heat vision and freeze breath are encounters, and the superstrength is at will.

Other serialized formats are often similar. Take an ongoing, combat-heavy story like Berserk or Rurouni Kenshin. Gatts has his arm cannon, his crazy-ass armor, and a load of crazy techniques. But he never just spams any one of them, except for his basic deadly swordsmanship--his attacks get used roughly in inverse proportion to how powerfully they are. Kenshin knows a million crazy techniques, but never uses any but the most basic few more than once per fight, and has a few he only ever uses a few times in the entire series--again, the more rarely used the power, the better it is.

Sometimes there is a good simulationist reason for why the characters don't just spam the techniques--they require a direct and explicit investment of power or some other resource that renders them difficult to repeat at will. But often that justification is flimsy to non-existent--logically, Superman really would throw a lot more giant monsters into space than he does.

But regardless of whether there is a good simulationist reason (and honestly, for some characters like the Flash or Martian Manhunter, there is virtually never a good simulationist reason because their powers are just that uber), there is always a good narrative reason, and that is that Superman constantly flinging everyone into space at the speed of light doesn't make for a good story. And sure, sometimes he just fights enemy that can fly and breathe in space and its a non issue--but maybe that flying-space-breather makes no sense for a certain story, and you don't want to waste a ton of page space on fanwanking reasons for Superman not to instawin every time, so he conveniently "forgets" to operate below full capacity, or you say he held back out of some wierd moral principle, even though it mostly resulted in him having to struggle way more with the fight than he "realistically" should have--but in a way that was probably more fun to read about then the "realistic" fight would have been.

And by the same token, moves get less cool the more you see of them--so if you want a move to seem special, the hero shouldn't use it all the time. Gatts busting out the arm cannon once a fight is badass--Gatts camping out in a tree and cannonballing dudes all fight every fight, not so much.

Balance is a narrativist concern as well as a gamist one, and fiction abounds with stories that prioritize balance over simulationism for the sake of the story. That doesn't mean they always have to be at odds, but its a fallacy to pretend that simulationism=narrativism

In my opinion, encounter powers and daily powers are 100% narrativist. The heroes use their coolest powers more rarely because that makes for a cooler story--the powers remain cool, and the fights are as challenging as the story needs them to be.


Imagin the Base M&M system, but with 4e powers or types of powers grafted on...Superman and Green Lantern with enconter and daily powers...

I would actualy think the PSion play test would be our best bet...more at wills that can augment, and enconter powers and daily powers (Yes I know the psion doesn't have encounters but I think it can work)...

is it possible? can anyone one else see where I am going with this...maybe 4-7 base 'classes' like in City of heros...Blaster, Tank, Controler...maybe a the monster roles would be best actualy...
then have a bunch of generic powers, and when you chose a 'power source' (not martial/arcane only, but mutant, and alein) it all comes togather...
 

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I definitely think you could have a good superhero system based on the same tenets as 4e.

However I do not think it is allowed under the GSL, so you'd have to start from scratch and reverse engineer the system.
 

OK, I gave it a little more thought...

Take the base 4e level set up but with everyone human (a slightly higher point buy (maybe 2-4pts higher), everyone gets +2 to any one stat, and +1 all NADS, a 3rd at will and a 2nd feat). Then you choose the following

Power Source: Mutant, Alien, Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic, ect
Role: artillery, brute, controller, lurker, skirmisher, and soldier
Theme: Radation, spider, paragon, detective, legend, mystic, ect

and these each give class features and skills, along with what special powers each unlocks...but for the most part powers are one big group of picks...



Next is the powers have min levels, but like psion augments they can get better.... but maybe you have X power points per encounter and can only spend them on at will and encounter powers...

maybe if we just go with the NADS we can even forgo AC as a defence...
 

I definitely think you could have a good superhero system based on the same tenets as 4e.

However I do not think it is allowed under the GSL, so you'd have to start from scratch and reverse engineer the system.

well It would not be something I would put togather to sell myself...although pitching it to WotC as a spin off game may not be a bad idea...

and with very little work a RPG designer could file off the seriel numbers and make there ow system based on it anyway...
 

Imagin the Base M&M system, but with 4e powers or types of powers grafted on...Superman and Green Lantern with enconter and daily powers...

While I think you might be able to do a certain kind of superheroic game based on 4Ed design principles, I don't think it would fit most classic superheroic tropes.

Most supers tend to have powers they can use at will. Almost everything Superman can do, he can do at any time, unless prevented by one of his weaknesses. Ditto most of DC's or Marvel's stables of characters.

Are there exceptions? Of course, usually in the form of the "Super Training" or "Martial Artist" or "Super Detective" archetypes- Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye. But even those guys typically have abilities that would be defined as at wills in a 4Ed design regime. The only thing that stops Capt. America from throwing his shield all the time is the tactical situation. Sometimes, he actually uses it for defense, after all, or the foes wise up and take cover.

Ironically, one of the places you could find that kind of campaign/design style would be in Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. The PCs in that game tend to be a bit more limited and focused than is typical of many superheroic worlds.
 


I think "stuff you don't do more than once an adventure" is supposed to be covered in M&M using the Power Stunt rules. If you want to encourage this over having the power inherently reduce the pp at character creation and hand out more Hero Points per adventure.

I don't think M&M at default is intended for realistic tactical use of character abilities.
 



4E IS a superhero game.
Heh... our 4e party sometimes goes by the name the "Just-Us League".

But seriously, 4e is a superhero game if mean 3rd-string Marvel mutants or the likes of Mockingbird. If you're looking for high-end superheroics like Green Lantern, you need play a previous edition of D&D, with their super-powerful magic spells.

It isn't that 4e isn't a supers game, it's that 1e-3e are more so.
 

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