Can XP handle a dial?

[steeldragons]

Now, for me, one of those things that *is* D&D is XP and "leveling up." So, I'll be using it in my games no matter what 5e does...and yes, I am one of those who advocates and likes the "balancing" elements of different classes leveling differently.

This thread is not about that..per se. It's worked for me for 30 years and I see no reason to change it now, so please to be sparing me the why's and how's I'm so wrong on that issue. I do not care/won't listen.

The question for this thread IS...

Is an XP system something that 5e can put on a OFFICIAL "use it like you want it" dial/optional modes of using or would that just make everyone crazy?

I'm thinking, like:
Option XP Module 1: Everyone XPs at the same rate (say 1,000 just as an example)
Option XP Module 2: Here's the XP tables/levels for each class
Option XP Module 3: I dunno...something else.
Option XP Module 4: Don't use XP at all and "level up" when the DM sez so?

Can 5e get away with that (and still *be* D&D) or would that be moving too far away from that sacred cow burger? Does everyone (group to group) in 5e HAVE to use XP the same way?

Just a thought from a few of the other threads floatin' around today.
--SD

 

[UngeheuerLich]

How do you want to balance that?

 

[steeldragons]

How do you want to balance that?

Balance what?

These are the XP you receive for whatever the adventure, your treasure, your monsters killed, missions completed, whatever...What's to balance?

Option A is how my group handles XP...Option B is how your group handles XP...What/where is there a need for balance?

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Yes, D&D can have a "dial" on the XP and leveling system. In fact it may be a good idea to have a chapter on XP and leveling rates.

The only difference between a XP and leveling systems that advances character level when a certain amount of XP is reached, a certain number of encounters completed, an adventure is completed or DM whim is how fast the characters level. Two characters of the same class, level and build would be the same no matter which system was used.

Module 2 (xp to level varying by class) is perhaps the only one that 5e can't reasonably include because it relies on a different class balancing mechanism and is tied more directly to XP.

 

[Ratskinner]

<snippage>

Can 5e get away with that (and still *be* D&D) or would that be moving too far away from that sacred cow burger? Does everyone (group to group) in 5e HAVE to use XP the same way?
--SD

I don't see why not. I've played in plenty of D&D games with different XP systems. While I respect your position that some kind of XP-based advancement system is integral to your D&D experience, and I think that should be the default idea for historical reasons, I don't think having different options will be deadly for the game at all. IME, it hardly affects the game experience at all.

 

[tlantl]

Along these lines might there be rules where we are able to earn experience points for stuff other than combat?

Things like treasure or quests or the use of class abilities so we don't wind up spending all of our time fighting things to earn experience points.

Some times I like to waste entire sessions doing little more than role playing. Sometimes the adventure brings the players into areas where the monster population is comprised of weak creatures who's experience point values are low. (I don't believe in constantly changing the composition of an area just because the players gain levels. Level appropriate encounters don't exist outside of dungeons or specific adventures.)

I'd like for the experience point tables to give me the opportunity to adjust the rate of advancement similar to the way pathfinder does. I might want lower level characters to level a little faster than characters that are near mid level. I'd be easier for me to just change charts than to reduce the experience award for individual monsters or whole encounters.

 

[steeldragons]

Along these lines might there be rules where we are able to earn experience points for stuff other than combat?

Oh I would certainly expect so. In addition to a set of options for HOW you can choose to incorporate XP into your game, I expect a nice page or so of options for WHAT you can choose to use for XP.

I myself count treasure (including magic items), creatures defeated (which does not necessarily have to mean "kill", but overcome somehow), good RPing will get you some, a particularly dramatic moment or scene, completing a particular quest/adventure or even section of an adventure...I've even given out XP just for making the table crack up (generally somehow in-game/character/RPing, but not always).

 

[Gold Roger]

The problem I see is that with optional different xp charts by class, class balance would get wonky in the long run.

Say we have group a) and group b).

Group a) uses the same xp chart for every class. After a certain amount of time, the wizard is 10th level, as are the fighter, the cleric and the rogue.

Group b) uses different xp by class. After the same amount of time the wizard is level 7, the cleric 8, the fighter 9, the rogue 10 (might be a bit extreme of a split).

Yet both groups use the same wizard class and the same rogue class. As wizard in group b) I'd be miffed, if the game is balanced for equal xp charts. Same goes for the rogue in group a) if the balance is grounded on the different xp charts.

Only way this wouldn't be an issue would be either to offer powerups to the classes that advance slower, which is a lot of additional design work, or make the differences in the xp charts so little that you hardly notice them.

My guess is that the pre 3rd edition different xp by class model was to balance that some classes (wizard or paladin) gained far more from a level up, than others (fighter, rogue) did. I'm not entirely against such an approach, but I doubt wizard will go for it with the next edition. I'm all for extreme modularity for the new edition, but I'm afraid in this case where modular design is not feasible.

 

[El Mahdi]

...Is an XP system something that 5e can put on a OFFICIAL "use it like you want it" dial/optional modes of using or would that just make everyone crazy?

I'm thinking, like:
Option XP Module 1: Everyone XPs at the same rate (say 1,000 just as an example)
Option XP Module 2: Here's the XP tables/levels for each class
Option XP Module 3: I dunno...something else.
Option XP Module 4: Don't use XP at all and "level up" when the DM sez so?

Can 5e get away with that (and still *be* D&D) or would that be moving too far away from that sacred cow burger? Does everyone (group to group) in 5e HAVE to use XP the same way?

Would that just make everyone crazy? Well, with the nature of the internet, and people being people, some will go crazy about this being an official stance no matter what.

As to it being official or not: I think it would be good to do this just so DM's who may have never been introduced to other models, or new DM's, can have these other ideas and then pick which one works or feels best for them (with advice on pro's and con's of each and how to implement).

All in all though, I don't think it would really affect the rules in any noticable way (though those that will go crazy over this will likely differ on that opinion no matter what...even in the face of no logical evidence or support).

And basically, this is what we all do right now anyways...so for me, that already rules out the "that ain't D&D" aspect. Those that like the system as is, use it as is. Those who just level up based on some other reference, be it number of adventures, DM perogative (based on campaign overview), or just on whim, already are able to do that also. They just ignore XP awards, or ignore XP entirely, and level up according to their benchmarks.

A dial of the different options though would definitely give someone like yourself, something that hasn't been in the system since 2E: different classes leveling differently. So that's definitely an argument for doing this. It's an old school mechanic that many still like, and would likely want to be able to do in 5E.

I would also hope that along with the standard XP system and the modular options/dials, they also provide a clear cut explanation of how they expect the standard XP system to perform...a mathematicall breakdown and explination. I want to know, in the standard system, exactly how much treasure, monsters, adventures, etc. equates to how much XP. That way I have a much better understanding of it's economy, and how to tweak it, if I do use XP.

But All in All, I can see some definite benefits to having different XP systems officially available for 5E. And I see no real downside.

 

[El Mahdi]

...

I think you're missing the point a bit. The question isn't so much, whether you'd like an XP system that had different classes leveling at different XP...it's whether inclusion of that in 5E, as a dial or module, would be bad for the game or not. Would it make the game "not D&D"? Would it make people go crazy if it was part of the game as an option?

It's obvious you wouldn't like that type of leveling. To be honest, neither would I. But would it adversely affect 5E if it was included as an option?