Can you convert 3.5 DnD Characters to hero system Characters

[Elf Witch]

I have not played a lot of Hero system and when I did it was back in the days of Champion. I have played a few sessions of Fantasy Hero back in 2002. My DM has a lot of experience with Hero, and Ad&D as a DM he has only DMed one 3E game before. He is struggling with it and feels that hero would be a better fit for the game he wants to run.

He thinks it will be an easy go to convert the characters. I spent the day looking at the rule set and I am not sure that it can be done without major changes to the characters. One player plays a druid. I play a specialist wizard necromancer multiclassed with the class dread necromancer. The others play a fighter and a cleric. They don't seem to hard as the druid and the wizard.

I dabbled a little and came up with needing at least 600 points to build my character to do what she does in DnD. Since I don't know that system I am sure I made mistakes and missed tricks.

I don't have an issue with switching systems but if it is going to be hard to make my character be the same concept I would rather just start with a new character.

If you have ever attempted this I would like to hear how it went.

 

[Hyper-Man]

I've played D&D 3.5 one time. I played a wizard in Fantasy HERO after that and the hardest adjustment between the systems is the less structured spell system.

However, It is possible to setup a D&D-like Vancian system within HERO.

See the following link for more info:
http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHero/MagicSystems/Vancian.aspx

The GM offered me the choice of following Killer Shrike's setup or the more basic FH option of spell cost divide-by-3 rule. I chose the latter only because I was playing the wizard more to fill out a party need than a desire to play the character type. The book method is quicker but much less developed than D&D's. Basically HERO requires the Player and GM to create the advancement path of spellcasters vs. the far more structured system in D&D. I'm much more of a supers and comics fan than I have ever been of fantasy. I still think the benefits of HERO's game time engine make up for the extra work it requires in the fantasy spellcaster creation side of things. It works better if you start with a character concept instead of trying to do a direct conversion between systems*

*Several years ago someone developed conversion notes between the old DC Heroes system and Champions. Using those rules characters like Superman and Batman ended up costing 1000+ points in Champions. However, I have shown it is possible to make quite recognizable versions of those characters on 'starting character points' in HERO (350 points for 5e and 400 for 6e).

HERO is a crunchy system but you will get as much out of it as you put into it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

First of all, I can tell you it can be done, because I have done it. I actually ran a game that let people build their characters based on the classes of their favorite edition. Bad news: I don't have the details at my mental fingertips and my campaign data was lost in a computer upgrade.

Good news: I think I can still help.

Whichever version of HERO you're using, see if you can get your hands on the Fantasy HERO sourcebooks and the Ultimate Martial Artist for that edition. A lot of the heavy lifting will be done in those books, especially in terms of crucial mundane gear (arms, armor, etc.) being statted out.

Do fantasy races as package deals. Most PC races come out needing @15 or so points more than a standard human. If you want, you can have different stat maxes for each race, but I did away with that, and just used the human normal limits. NOTE: those limits are not a hard ceiling, just a bar beyond which extra stats cost more.

All spells of a given level should probably have an active point limit.

Spellcasters, being Vancian, should probably use some kind of Variable Power Pool, which should be powered by its own End Reserve. All of the spells would be slots within it.

Power limitations will be key to limiting costs. All those spell components you see in the D&D books? Those are Limitations. A spellcaster who can only change his spell selection only after resting and using his spellbooks- a Wizard, for instance- has additional Limitations on his powers.

Can't wear armor? That would seem to be a character Disadvantage (if he hasn't leaned to ear a certain kind) but it is ACTUALLY best done as a Limitation on the spells of arcane spellcasters, and should be costed out as such.

Druids would suffer similar printable ms with some of their powers using metal armor, and again, it is a Limitation on the function of their powers.

Bonus stacking limts? That should probably be best handled as a campaign wide limitation- IOW, a universal discount.

Feats roughly translate into Talents. Melee types should be buying lots of martial arts maneuvers "Usable with weapon" and combat skill levels. Those with conditional combat bonuses- like sneak attack- should take some CSLs that are Limited to being useful only when flanking and only to increase damage.

Rage: atat boosts with limited uses per day, and a side effect.

 

[Elf Witch]

Thanks for the insight. My issue is coming with the goodies I get with my classes like scribe scroll, the things my familiar gives me like bonuses to my intuitive so I can actually get a chance to go before the melee types run in and clog the battle field so my area spells become useless, the ability to cast charnel touch at will which is an energy attack. Plus we use a lot of languages and my high intelligence gets me four extra. Then I have my skills like intimidate, diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and knowledge skills of arcana the two other realms, politics, history. And there are other abilities I would be getting as I levels in both my classes like magic item creation and the ability to slowly become a lich. I have a cool ability called bestow curse that allows me to damage someone and take the amount of damage I do to heal my wounds.



I can handle changes in spells even if limits the variety of them. As long as they follow the necromancy theme. One of the issues is I am looking at fifth edition of Hero and I am not sure what skills to substitute for the skills in DnD.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With skills, first get your GM to make a list of Everyman skills (Familiarity: succeed on 8-, costs 0 build points) for the campaign, or cultures & races within the campaign. That will lighten your load a bit.

Beyond that, Fantasy HERO and Ultimate Martial artist will probably enumerate the key skills for a fantasy game.

Creating stuff in HERO doesn't cost anything special other than having the build points to do such, unless the GM says otherwise for his campaign. A scroll would be a cheap-ish investment, seeing as how it is an Obvious, Accessible Focus that can only be used once. However, for consistency with D&D, I would probably design a separate VPP (Variable Power Pool) for each class if item your PC can create, with each being some kind of
Focus (scrolls being designed as above), and changeable only under limited circumstances.

An at will attack that never exhausts will look a lot like standard superhero powers, with no End cost.

I don't recall how familiars were done, sorry.

 

[Nagol]

The first thing to keep in mind is a perfectly faithful conversion is sort of possible, but probably not desirable. A different game system has different biases that are hard to overcome. An example is the linear bonus to attack in D&D vs. the belled attack roll in Hero. How much of an OCV bonus is a +1 to hit in D&D? Aim for a conversion that gives the players approximate parity and provides a character that can do what the player wants in general.

A lot of the heavy lifting needs to be done in advance by the DM.

I'm talking Hero 3/4/5 in my notes below. I've acquired 6, but haven't seriously considered running it.

Some of the basics necessary are

• How spells will be modeled (I used a Variable Power Pool per spell level with charges / day limitation on the whole pool and a requirement to prepare in advance every charge)
• How classes would be constructed (I went with a package deal per class per level as a base),
• How close the future character must be to a leveled character in the original game (keeping a tight correspondence minimises the value of using Hero IMO).

Racial package deals as originally presented were mostly useless. There was no real point to using a package as opposed to buying the abilities straight and in the end were more costly if you didn't buy the absolute maximum characteristics offered by the race.

Familiars are simple: they are a low-point follower tied to a small ability limited to their presence.

Magic items are simply modeled one of two ways: if the object is expected to be a signature item of the character and will see a lot of use, it is a power with a universal focus. If the item is expected to be used infrequently and is eventually gone, it is a power with universal focus and Independent limitation.

Generally, all players can spend xp as they wish -- which means any PC can acquire a Independent magic item at player discretion. Scribe scroll and the other craft magic item feats become somewhat redundant except from a fiction perspective.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The great power of the HERO system is that for any given desire, there are a half dozen ways to realize it. It is also the greatest flaw.

Talk to your GM- perhaps he has some ideas about how he wants things to work, and will make certain build option decision at the campaign level.

For instance, I'm designing a Fantasy campaign set in and using mechanics from M:tG. So rather than have each player decide how to make their supernatural stuff work, I made a campaign design decision about how to make mana- COLORED mana- work. Everything in that campaign will flow from that.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Hey Elfwitch.

It's a slow morning at work so prepare for an essay in answer to your queries.

In addition to the above suggestions I also recommend getting Hero Designer software if you haven't already. It makes designing characters very easy.

With skills it's important to keep in mind that HERO has a very granulated system. There are no really big "catch all" skills. Of course it's possible to create them in the rules. HERO Designer even has a "Custom" skill button. Pick it, call the skill what you want and play it exactly as the equivalent skill in DND. But one of the benefits of HERO is that it plays differently to DnD. I'd use it that way. Of course I realise that your GM says how the campaign is actually run. If they want it to play just like DnD they can, it will work. But I'm working on the theory that the system has been chosen because a different play style is wanted.

Anyhoo...

For skill equivalents I use the following:

Bluff = Acting.

Diplomacy = Bribery, Bureaucratics, Conversation, High Society, Interrogation, Persuasion, Seduction, Trading. (Erm, I did say it is a more finely granulated system didn't I? ) These skills are generally used in the competitive, skill vs. skill fashion. I will say I don't think there's any need for Bribery and Trading. To my mind they do the same thing - facilitate a quid pro quo exchange.

Knowledge Skills are easy: define the branch of knowledge, buy the skill. So Knowledge Arcana (DnD) = Knowledge Skill Arcana (HERO.) One thing to consider is that Knowledge Skills can be as broad or as specific as you, the player, wants them to be. e.g.. KS:Arcana (DnD) covers all magic, stuff about dragons, inventing spells, etc. In HERO you could buy them all as separate skills*. What is implied by the rules set (but just implied AFAIK) is that a more specific skill will get more specific answers for the same level of success. e.g.. Make your KS:Arcana check spot on and your character knows "That's a dragon." Make your KS: Dragons roll spot on and your character knows "That's an Acid Drake. Swims and breathes acid, you know."

*Inventing spells must be bought as a separate skill: Inventor (Spells). At least according to RAW.

Languages can be bought at various levels of fluency from Basic to Idiomatic with literacy costing 1 more point on top of whatever level you can speak it at. There is the Linguist Skill Enhancer which makes any language you put points into effectively 1 higher. e.g.. Buy Orcish at basic (1 point) you actually get it at fluent (usually 2 points.) The Linguist ability costs 3 points. This will save you only 1 point initially but will save you more points going forward.

There are no direct equivalents for Intimidate or Sense Motive.

The way I would run Sense Motive by is simply giving certain types of information when a diplomacy skill is used. So in a Conversation vs. Conversation roll off, the winner gets a few hints about the loser based on degree of success and circumstance. Some of these hints may be about motives.

Intimidate is a simple Presence Attack. Anyone can make a Presence attack. It's a Zero Phase action. It takes no time. It is part of your other actions. So, frinstance, the big bad barbarian kicks in the door, charges across the room and sweeps her axe through an orc's neck and screams at the survivors (Amanda Plummer from Pulp Fiction style) "If any of you move, I'll execute every - last one of you!" The effectiveness of your Presence Attack is based on your character's presence with modifiers up or down for things like surprise, violent actions, extremely violent actions, good or bad soliloquies, already being in combat and bunch of other things your GM will have on a list.


Elfwitch, you mentioned scrolls above. The easiest way to make a scroll is to buy a bunch of spells with limitations that represent the fact that they are only available because the character has taken the time to charge up some magic and store it.

So something like Variable Power Pool with limited charges (equal to however many scrolls the character has at one time); Fragile Obvious Accessible Focus (the actual physical parchment); Limited Power: Spells can only be changed back at base/in the lab/at the library. What all that means is your character has a few scrolls. Specific, pre-defined spells are on those scrolls. What is written on the scrolls can only be changed back at your necromancer's library (or equivalent place, like someone else's library.) In practical terms your scroll load is decided at the start of the adventure and then doesn't change until your character gets some down time.

In fact a bunch of scrolls works exactly like what is called a Gadget Pool in the Super Heroes genre. Gadget Pools are already defined in the main rule book (in 5th ed anyway. Probably also in 6th ed, but haven't actually read that one) so just have a look at them. The scrolls are just magical gadgets. Wands and so forth could also fit within this gadget pool but I would suggest a second, separate gadget pool for wands as there's enough difference (the number of charges) between DnD style wands and scrolls to warrant a second pool.

Using a Variable Power Pool (of which a gadget pool is a subset) requires a skill roll. In the case of your Scroll Pool this skill might be Scribe Scroll.

I will have to disagree with Nagol on one point: do NOT buy your scrolls as Independent Foci. You can, but DON'T. The character points spent on Independent Foci are gone gone gone once the scroll is used. XP in HERO is more valuable than XP in DnD.

Charnel Touch
Buy it as a Blast, no range (or a Hand Killing Attack, aka HKA) vs. Energy Defence or maybe NND (not versus Longevity.) NND is "No Normal Defence." It makes a power very expensive but also VERY effective except against targets with the defence in which case it has NO effect. Zero, zilch, nada. I would not buy the power "No END" unless your character is going to be using it all the time. In practical terms paying END for small - middling powers doesn't put much of a limitation on their use.

You mention your character becoming a lich as they go along. Cool. But it occurs to me you might be expecting certain benefits from that state that don't equate in HERO terms. The, um, dis-join that first occurred was the undead immunity to Mind Control. HERO doesn't do immunities (with the except of NND as explained above.) One can buy a hell of a lot of defence making one immune for all practical purposes. But this is expensive. Odds are you will simply buy a chunk of Mental Defence and make do with that and your character's innate high Ego.

When going from DnD to HERO I'd take the opportunity to avoid certain DnD conceits.

One that I like is wizards can (and if they have any sense and want to live long happy healthy lives, should) do is wear armour.

I'd also chat with the GM and players and see if they want to avoid Vancian casting entirely. Vancian is a bit of a shoe horn effort for HERO.

Something that happens in HERO is that it's possible for spell casters to wind up paying many points for something a warrior type can do for free - to whit cause damage. For instance a sword does 1d6+1 damage. A warrior gets a sword for money, not character points. A wizard will have to pay 20 points for a spell that does 1d6+1 damage. This cost is then brought down by limitations like incantations, gestures and material components but it is never reduced to 0. Power Pools also effect exactly how this is going to work. Depending on how the GM wants magic to work this can make a wizard type much less effective in straight up damage dealing. In this case I recommend focussing those things warriors can't do, like summoning the undead or laying down walls of fog or fire etc. Area of effect attacks are another thing.

I'm about out of ideas at the moment but if you have any questions please feel free to ask. (my afternoon is looking slow too.)

Cheers.

edited for typos.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The one thing I always encourage D&D players to do in HERO- even those in a D&D style campaign- is to take advantage of the system to unleash their PC concepts. By that, I mean that they should design their own spells. To put it in 3.5Ed terms, have their PCs do some spell research to design signature spells.

For instance, consider Ray of Enfeeblement. Nice, low-level necromantic attack spell. Making a version of it with the advantages of Multifire and Explosion and you have a nasty AoE spell...

 

[Elf Witch]

Thanks for the insight and information.

I talked briefly with the DM on Tuesday he drove me for my cataract surgery.

It is not that he does not like DnD as a player he enjoys 3E but not as a DM. He says he finds it to restrictive. For example he wanted to throw werewolves at us so he did and they nearly killed us because we are only second level. As a DM he does not have a grasp on CR threats and wealth levels and how they effect game balance.

We are supposed to get together Saturday to convert the characters. One of the resistance I am seeing from the other players is that they just can't sit down and build their own characters because they don't know thew game or how he is doing things. This is one limitation I see to the hero system is that it is a wonderful tool kit for DMs but players have to wait for so much input from the DM. With an on the ball DM who does not have a crazy job that may not be a limitation but it is to us.