Can you define the role of the Balor?

[gizmo33]

But the balor doesn't go around commanding and organizing troops.

It doesn't? Do you live in Moria? I don't really recall the socio-economic details of Moria. Whether or not the Balrog arbitrated goblin disputes over water-rights is something I'm not clear on. I suppose I should pick a better example.

Maybe I should say this - if *my* version of Moria IMC has the Balor acting as a leader, and other Balors on the 9th layer of Hell serving as Tiamat's minions (pardon the butchering of canon), then doesn't that demonstrate that role is dependant on context and that choosing one role for all monsters of a certain type is overly narrow and cartoonish?

The dwarves perspective of the Balor as a brute may rely on their complete ingnorance as to the role that the Balor plays in the Morian goblin society. Recall that the "dwarvish" perspective is essentially all you get in LotR minus a little backstory from the days of Morgoth. AFAIK, no one lived amongst the goblins to know exactly how they interacted with the Balrog. This is relevant to my concern about monster roles because I think they will encourage a kind of cheesy cartoon style stereo-typing.

I keep saying "cartoon" because this all really reminds me of the HeMan cartoon where you have the BBEG and the minions. More quasi-real-world situations actually have many more nuances to leadership and complex relationships, and if DnD is going to go down the road of codifying only the most simple-minded of situations, I think that's too limiting.

Sure, it's the biggest baddest thing in town and everyone better do what it commands, but it's not a "leader" in the D&D party role sense.

If a PC in my campaign is such that all of the other PCs better do what he says, we call that PC the "leader". I guess there's more than one use for the term "leader" but then I suppose there's some morality and value judgement issues here that I don't quite grasp?

It's a brute, plain and simple. Something to go toe to toe with the party in melee combat, probably toasting them all with its fiery aura and making special attacks against people at a distance with its flaming whip...but still it's a melee brute.

It's not that plain and simple to me. I suppose that "role" really has to do with combat tactics? Wouldn't "melee" (as opposed to missle, or sneak attack, or whatever) be better terminology? Whether or not something is a leader is probably an entirely seperate issue from the combat tactics that it chooses to employ. Robin Hood is a leader and a skirmisher. King Arthur is a leader and a melee fighter. Something like that.

 

[Kunimatyu]

It's a Triathlete/Boss-type monster, and could be turned into a minion if you needed it in an epic Orcus fight?

 

[Rechan]

But the balor doesn't go around commanding and organizing troops. Sure, it's the biggest baddest thing in town and everyone better do what it commands, but it's not a "leader" in the D&D party role sense.

As I recall the Demon/Devil article, Demons are lead by brutes.

Seriously, demons don't fall rank and file behind other demons. The bigger and badder demons rule by threat. They're bullies, not generals.

The exception may be the Marilith.

 

[frankthedm]

A Balor is a large flaming demon with a sword and a whip, not a spell caster. They are going to:

cut most of those SLA.
beef him up with more HP and AC.
make at least half his 'fire' damage unholy.
Make his previously vorpal weapon instead deal horrendous critical hits.
Make his fire Aura gets worse when bloodied, giving hits of his imminent explosion.
Have his whip reposition foes on the battlefield if it hits them.
Allow him will switch between sword and whip as a free action.

 

[gizmo33]

It's a Triathlete/Boss-type monster, and could be turned into a minion if you needed it in an epic Orcus fight?

And if he's on your side he has the "ally" role, and if he didn't get much sleep that night he's on the "hates everybody" role. And if he likes poetry and dispenses advice he takes on the "wise man" roll. He could be your ally but choose to hang around you and protect you rather than charge into melee in which case he'll take on the "protector" role. I guess I don't get roles. One monster with one possible role seems ridiculous to me. It seems like they're trying to encourage you *not* to think about what your monster is doing.

DM: "he's a brute, so he charges you screaming"
Player: "wait a minute, I shout at him that we were sent here on behalf of his master"
DM: "but then he'd have to stop and talk to you"
Player: "yea"
DM: "uh...he's a brute... so he charges you screaming"

 

[gizmo33]

As I recall the Demon/Devil article, Demons are lead by brutes.

So Grazz't is a brute now? I recall this issue not being that cut and dry nor settled a while back. I guess it's been settled since.

Seriously, demons don't fall rank and file behind other demons. The bigger and badder demons rule by threat. They're bullies, not generals.

The exception may be the Marilith.

Why not the Balor? In fact, the Balor is pretty much the re-statting of the Type VI Demon from 1E, whose description made it pretty clear that he was considered the most lawful of all demons in that book.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Is 'make the party crap themselves' a viable answer? Because that's what I'd use him for.


Seriously, though, I'm guessing him and the pit fiend are both tri-athletes, the pit fiend maybe being a mastermind type as well.

 

[Rechan]

So Grazz't is a brute now? I recall this issue not being that cut and dry nor settled a while back. I guess it's been settled since.

I am not sure if it was announced or not, but I can pretty much guarantee that Graz'zt et al are exceptions to the norm.

 

[Rechan]

=I guess I don't get roles. One monster with one possible role seems ridiculous to me.

DM: He's a barbarian, so he runs at you screaming.
Players: But we're here to talk to the barbarian king of the orcs, the Atilla the Hun of Orcdom.
DM: Sorry, Barbarian. That means he rages and fights you.

Role is just What It Does in a fight. Has nothing to do with the monster's intelligence or out-of-combat purpose.

 

[StarFyre]

i disagree

teh balor was meaent from initial concept to be a brute in combat AND a magical force to be reconned with.

I know if they don't make it so, I'll have to modify it greatly to fit my vision of it, but you'd kinda expect such a creature, like someone above said, to be able to take on anything almost, taht comes it's way.

SAying it's only a melee brute won't really fit the concept of such a greater being.

And to the comment of hell, it would be a peasent or something; yeah...in the abyss, the Klurichir would then be the leader and melee/magical might while it can summon 2 balors to help it fight if needed as it's servants.

And as they stated multiple weapons gives multiple attacks, it will probably have 2 to 4 attacks/round I imagine based on what it is doing.

A 20th level boss with no magic ability and 1 attack just doesn't cut it, and i can't imagine it would, regardless of how they expect the scope of 4E...unless they are really going down the 'basic foe video game style' path where bosses sit there and get hit until they die.

(yes, even in WoW they essentially do that, with a few scripted sequences that cause players to scamper for a sec to redo their plans)

Sanjay