Can you get denied a Reflex Saving Throw.

[Otterscrubber]

I can't think of a reason why you would ever be denied a fort or will saving throw, but are there any rules and/or situations listed anywhere for reasons you might not get a reflex saving throw? Obviously there are times when you get denied your dex bonus, but I don't think it's the same thing.

 

[MarauderX]

Shackled to a wall and cannot move would be a good one. "Try to dodge my fireball now, Mr. Evasion Master!! MUHAhahaaaa!!" I suppose entangled or otherwise inhibited from movement would range from small to severe penalties, at the discretion of the DM.

 

[Norfleet]

Situations where the victim can't move will deny them a reflex save. Being chained to a wall, being asleep, being unconcious, being dead, having all of your arms and legs removed, etc., are all conditions which can potentially do this.

That said, reflex is probably the least-important save in D&D: Failing a fort/will save tends to largely eliminate your participation in the game. Failing a reflex save means you lose some more hitpoints. Boo, hoo, hoo.

 

[shilsen]

The latest 3.5 FAQ update dealt with this same question as follows:

Q: Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A: A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but there are a few conditions that interfere with Reflex saves:

• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex
saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Thanks Shilsen, pretty solid answer there. Seems weird to allow a reflex save, even one at a hefty penalty, to someone who is paralyzed, but it is fair and balanced.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

(Nevermind)

 

[Ottergame]

Don't forget, saves are just as much luck and karma as skill.

 

[dcollins]

Shackled to a wall and cannot move would be a good one. "Try to dodge my fireball now, Mr. Evasion Master!! MUHAhahaaaa!!"

"Could a man chained to a rock, they asked, save himself from the blast of a red dragon's breath? Why not?, I replied... Imagine that the figure, at the last moment, of course, manages to drop beneath the licking flames, or finds a crevice in which to shield his or her body, or succeeds in finding a way to be free of the fetters. Why not?"

- AD&D 1st Ed. DMG, "Saving Throws", p. 80, (c) 1979

 

[MarauderX]

"Could a man chained to a rock, they asked, save himself from the blast of a red dragon's breath? Why not?, I replied... Imagine that the figure, at the last moment, of course, manages to drop beneath the licking flames, or finds a crevice in which to shield his or her body, or succeeds in finding a way to be free of the fetters. Why not?"

- AD&D 1st Ed. DMG, "Saving Throws", p. 80, (c) 1979

Yup, so it is. I was thinking PC can't move = no Reflex save, when I suppose the helpless dangling rogue could make her saving throw and take no damage from an area effect spell though she can't even move. The caster could mess up, perhaps the rogue swiveled her hips to the side and her cape shielded the blast, who knows what luck will decide.

Now, when would Fort and Will be denied? The answer should be the same, right?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The latest 3.5 FAQ update dealt with this same question as follows:

The latest 3.5 FAQ update ducked this same question.

It didn't address the line in the Evasion ability description that states that a character who does not have room to move cannot use Evasion, as with a Reflex Save for any creature.

-Hyp.