Can you get too much healing?

[Dan'L]

By moving the limitations from the per-day basis to the per-encounter basis, you essentially remove surges as the primary basis for when players decide to rest.

...

But in my experience, players quickly see through the mechanics, resolving to not put themselves into that position in the first place.

...

If the number of surges you can use per encounter is limited, we attain this goal.

If the number of surges you can use per day is unlimited, or at least the penalties for running out are mitigated, we solve the other problem, the 15-minute adventuring day too (by making pressing on a real choice, a hard choice).

I would raise a caution with this, especially given that you have players who seek to exploit the healing mechanics. You will need to also redefine what constitutes an encounter, or under what circumstances you can take a short rest.

As it stands, there is nothing mechanical to keep players from resting five minutes to let all the per-encounter stuff to reset, use it, then rest up another five minutes to let it all repeat again; in fact, I've even had it somewhat encouraged RPGA games. If you make the daily surges unlimited, then there really is no continually growing threat, and really no hard choice about pressing on.

Because being down your daily powers, but in all other ways equally viable going into ecounter 6 as you were going into encounter 1? Not really a hard choice at all, if there is even one scrap of plot reason to press on.

So perhaps just introducing per-encounter limits, but maintaining per-day limits, will give you the balance you are seeking.

I'm going to additionally suggest that if you go with encounter limits, you scale them differently for different characters. Two methods come to mind for this:

A) By class role. Make 3 be your median, and adjust up or down from there; 2 for controllers, 3 for leaders and strikers, and 4 for defenders

B) By limiting it to a fraction of the character's total Healing Surge per Day limit, either 1/3 or 1/2.

I would lean towards (B) using 1/3 daily totals, rounding 1/3 HS down and 2/3 HS up (ex. 10 HS/D =3 HS/E, 11=4). This seems to be the best suited to maintain the class-specific needs for more or less healing surges, based on their intrinsic design function. (e.g. Paladins will likely have more capability than Fighters, because they'll be using them for others as well as themselves, and Avengers and Barbarians will have more than other strikers, because they are primarily in the thick of melee and may need a little more.)

-Dan'L

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think there can be too much healing.

My Dragonborn Warlord in our Savage Tides campaign has a hard time finding a good opportunity to hand out some healing with his encounter powers without "overhealing". Two Defenders in a party (one Shielding Swordmage, one Paladin) make it hard to spend all your healing.

 

[Cadfan]

Just to follow up on my earlier post: we finished three more encounters and ended the delve. Final tally on healing surges and hit points:

Fighter: two surges, no damage remaining
Shaman: four surges, no damage remaining
Avenger: zero surges, no damage remaining
Invoker: five surges, no damage remaining
Druid: zero surges, two damage remaining

That's right, we're so tapped out that we can't even finish healing. It helps a lot that the shaman lets you split healing between targets. Its less useful for rescuing someone in an emergency, but it really helps spread out the healing surge usage so that you don't run out.

No daily powers remained, counting utility and item.

Total encounters: 6, of levels N, N+1, N+3, N+1, N+1, N. Nice weird little bell curve there.

I don't think we're likely to do everything this way, but it worked out just fine. You'll notice that the biggest fight was third, and tension was held just fine during it. Healing surge triggers simply ran out, so our healing surge reserves were pointless. Not that I think that a clear chance of death is necessary for tension, I think the OPs a little myopic on that point, but in this case it was present.

Partial spoiler

[sblock]
Monsters fought

Ghost
Ghoul
Gnoll
Grell
Hound
Hyena

Apparently the DM is taking us through the monster manual alphabetically. And only using monsters with five letters.
[/sblock]

 

[Cadfan]

During the thread's evolution I have become more and more convinced the designers have simply forgot to playtest parties that are heavily "triggered out", and this is something few of you have responded to. I realize you won't see the issue in a standard party (the "expected" party), but perhaps you could have a think about it and then discuss what you feel about it.

I think you're wrong. I think that the designers probably did playtest it, but that they didn't playtest the combination that you're experiencing: maximized healing triggers coupled with a one fight per day regimen.

I doubt that having a few extra healing words would make a significant difference if your typical day averaged three to five encounters. It would be a noticeable help, but I doubt it would unbalance your game. You probably shouldn't combine both extremes.

 

[silverwhisper]

cap: this may be a stupid question, but have you discussed this with your players at all? someone else asked the question earlier (i don't recall who), but it seems to me that all we're seeing is the DM perspective and not that of the players.

did the party begin as a healing nova party, or did it grow that way after a few sessions?

i know you said you don't want to change how you build encounters, but to be honest, you're repeating the same behaviors and expecting different results, no?

and there've been tons of ideas about how to re-structure even the BBEG once/session fights you're using: delayed introduction of combatants, for example; just sheer overmatch the party with a n+5--to which i would immediately suggest adding a n-1 (or lower) in its aftermath.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

ok, second attempt^^

i could se aproblem with an all healer party, but I don´t see the problem with too many multiclass heals.

It is actually only 3 triggers more than usual, and if you count potions, it desn´t really matter how they trigger them...

actually if you want a 1 combat day, it is only naturaly, that daily powers are much more potent... they can be used as often as encounter powers.

Here i would support the sleeping is only a short rest approach, and you need to rest for a whole day to get an extended rest. 5 minute breaks only allow you to reset your second wind or something like that...

 

[Skallgrim]

There are two specific things I wanted to point out

...this can cause one PC to run out of surges quickly, and as we all agree, you simply don't press on for the day as soon as one character becomes unhealable. ...


In my view, 4E tension hinges too much on the assumption players won't select too much healing by their own volition. And I'm saying that because I have had the misfortune to be given players who relatively quickly saw how more healing triggers would give their PCs a cushioned existence, where the only drawback is a need to rest more often.

The first one of these is something that "we"' don't all agree on. Many of us, I suspect, run campaigns where it is eminently clear that

1) Spending surges willy-nilly is careless and reckless in the extreme.

and

2) Sometime you CANNOT succeed if you stop to take an extended rest.

Even if you and I both agree that, ideally, you don't press on for the day as soon as a character becomes unhealable (and we don't, because my group has done so), it doesn't naturally follow that a character should seek to become unhealable as quickly as possible to end the day. I still can't see any fundamental difference between a group that runs into a combat and uses ALL of their healing surges in one fight (how do they even DO that?) and a group that runs into a combat and uses all of their daily powers.

Either they NEEDED to do that (in which case you were giving them a really epic fight and they SHOULD be able to rest afterward), or they didn't need to do that, and they spent their daily resources unwisely. I don't see any fundamental difference between healing surges and daily powers in this respect, except that you can use all of your daily powers MORE easily, in that you don't need a party of multiclassed healers to allow it. If anything, the "nova combat" should be more of an issue than depleting healing, considering that it is much easier to achieve. Yet, I have heard very few complaints about groups that choose to unload all of their dailies in fight one, and then expect the DM to let them sleep overnight before fight two.

Second, you point out that your group saw how spending a lot of healing surges could "cushion" their existence, and saw that the ONLY drawback was a need to rest more often. To me, you've put the entire conflict in a nutshelll right there.

If, in your game, the ONLY drawback to this strategy is a need to rest more often, then OF COURSE this is the good strategy. Your players have already seen it.

There have been tons of posters suggesting precisely that this should not be the ONLY drawback to this stragegy. They've offered many of the drawbacks which could apply:

rest interrupted by random encounters
rest interrupted by the next encounter
time pressure to complete adventure successfully (enemies achieve goals)
time pressure to complete adventure easily (monsters reinforce)
time pressure to complete adventure at all (enemies retreat)
no appropriate place to rest

You yourself are pointing out exactly the problem. The ONLY drawback the players are affected by is a need to rest more often. You've CHOSEN to make this the only drawback to their strategy. If there's NO drawback to taking an extended rest between encounters, then I think EVERY group would do it, every time, and use all of their daily powers in each and every encounter. Why not?

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are experiencing the consequence of your own DM choices. If you choose to make it possible to take an extended rest and recover all healing surges and daily powers after each encounter, then you've chosen to run a game where each encounter needs to be really epic and challenging, where the adventurers NEED those daily powers and surges. That's a valid playstyle, and often, I switch between them, myself. A party can have fun with a major altercation if they know it is the only fight of the day.

I just can't see any unique problem with healing surges here. Suppose another group decides to all play Barbarians. Their damage output goes through the roof, and they have no control ability, and no healing. That doesn't indicate that there's a problem with the game, or with AC, or with minions. It indicates that the group has chosen an extreme edge-case build, and is probably going to find some encounters very easy, and others really hard. As a DM, you could suggest they change their party composition, or change the opposition they face, or just let them live with their choices and take their lumps. I don't think that claiming WOTC screwed up their design of 4e because they LET you choose to all be barbarians would be a fair option to pick.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thank you everybody who have replied. The active discussion is something I really appreciate!

Let's see if I can give each one of you at least a short reply, beginning from the end...:

@Skallgrim: I understand what you're trying to say. But this doesn't change the fact that a party with surges left and a party without surges left are in two extremely different situations. Which I happen to feel is crude game design.

As for your main point, what you are suggesting is various story-based reasons for why they cannot or should not take extended rests. However, when you think about it, what this amounts to is nothing else than the GM controlling the players. Why? Because by the rules as written, there simply is no choice when you're running low on surges. You *have* to rest.

Now what you're saying is that players should be conservative in using their powers in anticipation of hitting this brick wall too soon. And if they, for example, frivolously used daily Healing Words instead of "free" Second Winds (because they don't want to lose a round's attack), you'd be right. But it's awfully hard to generate any tension just from seeing a number tick down, when you might not know how many encounters there is left for the day.

One solution, then, would be to give the players an overview of what's expected of them. If they know they need to infiltrate the castle and find the princess today, that might give them some sense in how to ration their dailies. But often this simply isn't the case. In fact, I would say it's the exception to the rule. Generally, adventures descend into the depths without knowing if it is a three or thirty room dungeon. Any resource management there becomes a charade, an illusion, where you don't have any real facts to base meaningful decisions on.

"I still can't see any fundamental difference between a group that runs into a combat and uses ALL of their healing surges in one fight (how do they even DO that?) and a group that runs into a combat and uses all of their daily powers."

Ah. Yes, this would cause a lot of misunderstandings.

Okay then, here's the deal:

* Running out of daily powers is not a catastrophe. You're still fairly effective. Sure, you've used up powers that are nice to have, but getting into another fight is far from suicide.

* Running out of healing surges, on the other hand, is a catastrophe. You suddenly become effectively unhealable, for crissake! Suddenly even a minor skirmish can kill you if you're unlucky or the monsters decide to focus on you. You can't use Second Wind and your allies Healing Word doesn't work. Not even Healing Potions work.

This is a major drop in character power that invalidates a lot of strategies and options (not to mention any healing surge-fueled items you might have). If the party decides they've had enough for today, even at the expense of failing their mission, I can hardly blame them.

Sure, they could press on. But the risk of encountering the BBEG gets only higher, and what is the point of throwing away your lives when acting under such a disadvantage. Put plainly, the game stops being fun at zero surges. And now I mean that it isn't fun to feel forced into yet another encounter when you see overwhelming reasons not to.

I don't mean it isn't fun to play a vulnerable character - in fact, I would ideally want every encounter to pose a threat of healing ceasing to work, so the characters actually feel they're in real (not illusory) danger.


And hopefully I don't need to remind you that I am the source of my own problem by saying "no thanks" to several initial fights where any danger is non-existent or illusory (thanks to everybody being at full surges).

 

[CapnZapp]

@UngeheuerLich: Well, if everybody in a five-man party takes the Cleric MC feat, you have five daily Healing Words. This means that if you are the party Fighter, you become effectively invulnerable during any given encounter: counting your own Second Wind, you can use no less than eight healing surges. (Five daily Words, the Cleric's two encounter Words, and your SW).

All this before considering powers (like Comeback Strike) and equipment (such as Dwarven Armor). Not to mention other healing powers your leader might have access to.

I hope you see how a Fighter could spend all his Surges in a single encounter, even if he has a 20 Con!

Now, the core of the difference of opinion is this:
1) I claim this to remove all traces of excitement for this character. He is practically impossible to down, and even if the monsters manage to do so, he will spring back immediately
2) I get the advice to run more encounters
3) I explain how lots of practically danger-less encounters aren't our cup of tea. Now, it's alright to stop here, and simply say "4E isn't for you". However, if you do feel D&D should be able to accommodate people who like danger and excitement (like me), feel free to read on...
4) I get the advice to deny the party their extended rests
5) I explain how I find this to be a very crude and unsatisfying solution which only really is a game patch. It really removes player choice where the real problem is that choice was already removed because running out of surges is such a game-breaking deal.

Feel free to expand your questioning, and I hope I'll be able to respond more!

 

[CapnZapp]

@silverwhisper: Well, if it makes a difference to you, I am the one who quickly realized running lots of small fights didn't "do it" for me (considering my goals as a DM to generate excitement and tension at the table). It was only as a reaction to that the players started to explore additional ways to get healing.

Which prompted me to turn to the forums for advice, once I realized two things:

1) the game actively is working against my goals, by allowing the party to stock up on so many healing triggers even a hard encounter can't threaten the players.
2) that how players expend very valuable daily powers such as the MC Healing Words actually work to magnify the problem with the 15-minute adventuring day. Not only does the game heavily penalize running out of surges, now I have made daily powers so powerful the players don't want to without them...


@Cadfan: fair enough.

Yes, it's crystal clear now that the game all but requires the DM to string out a few encounters before the ones where resources actually start running out; where the adventures actually might lack the powers to simply heal back up any lost hp.


To everyone: To make my dilemma even more clear: yes, I can't muster any excitement for a game where the excitement consists of you trying to get as far as you can before you run out of surges.

I want my games to consist of easy fights and hard fights, where the hard fights can actually threaten the PCs lives, even if the hard fight happens to be the first one for the day.

And I don't buy the underlying assumption that PCs will press on even at low or no surges. This might work for some groups, but not mine. Sorry - they're far too good at math crunch and rationalizing their own odds to do that.

What I specifically don't like is how the game couples together two things:
1) choosing danger and excitement
and
2) willfully ignoring the maths of the game

I want the game to offer danger and excitement even if you don't accept the vastly worsened odds you get when your run out of surges.

To me, surges make D&D 4e act just like D&D 3e, where the only way to achieve danger and excitement was to ignore either of two things:
1) allowing danger to enter an otherwise easy win by not expending your best attack spells to blow the enemy away
2) pressing on even after doing 1) despite the vastly lower offensive capabilities you have.

Choices like that aren't choices at all.

Drama, excitement and danger should not be the result of player choice.

That is, the players should not have to choose danger (by pressing on despite low surges, by not using up powers that could end the encounter).

Danger should come to them.

The choice to press on should be motivated by story reasons and general "weariness" - but these are only choices if the story continues even if you say no or if you are still capable even when you've become "weary". Otherwise they aren't real choices.

A game where "weariness" equals being unhealable and where the adventure simply stops if you don't press on is not a good game in my view. That is why I don't like the game as written as well as the advice I'm getting to restrict extended rests.