Can you teach someone not to (bad) metagame - (or at least not be rude)

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Gaming is a consensual group activity; it doesn't matter what the rules are, if one player's actions/attitude are causing friction, he needs to stop. I don't care what the DMG says, if as a group you agree that no one can speak without someone handing them the 'talking stick' then that's what you do.

Does the guy want to be a good trooper but just lacks the impulse control? Or does he think he's not doing anything wrong and you're just a meany trying to ruin his fun?

If it's the former, then perhaps more structure will help -- assuming the other players will go along with it. For managing larger than normal groups, for example, I've often imposed a time-limit for group discussion, then strictly enforced a 'no talking when its not your turn' rule when things started. Sidebar discussions had to take place away from the table (and woe to you if you weren't up to speed when you came back!).

If everyone at the table goes with the flow, it becomes a group habit, and hopefully the problem player will fall into line. Not talking out of turn would make the meta-gaming stuff easier to deal with and maybe less annoying to the others -- I suspect a lot of the annoyance is coming from him jumping in with his wanting to make Knowledge checks and stuff while others are trying to get their 'DM face time'.

 

[DonTadow]

Well, one thing yuou need to let everyone here know is what you consider metagaming. I have seen many people with wildly different interpretations of what metagaming is, and what it is not. I doubt if much of the advice you are going to get will be of much value unless everyone is one the same page as to what "emtagaming" is in the context of your campaign.

And on the other point, the information in the DMG about metagaming is not a rule. It is fluff. If it were a rule, it would be in the SRD, and it is not.

My apologies to everyone. I really am seeking advice on this, I erased my posts towards felon and put in what i consider metagaming. I'll repost that info in this thread.
1. He talks during others initiative OOC and overtalks them
2. He wants to use knowledge skills to assure theories of his, not for actual knowledge rules. For instance whenever another charachter figures out something or puts two and two together, he, without fail, asks for a roll to see if his charachter figures it out.
3. He uses his player knowledge and OOC comments to the other players about how to defeat certain encounters
4. Asks questions OOC about the plot, encounters, creatures, ect during game.

 

[Felon]

Well, one thing yuou need to let everyone here know is what you consider metagaming. I have seen many people with wildly different interpretations of what metagaming is, and what it is not. I doubt if much of the advice you are going to get will be of much value unless everyone is one the same page as to what "emtagaming" is in the context of your campaign.

Exactly. It's easy to support someone whose position is only conveyed on a vague level. "Metagaming" might be a red flag word for some folks, but using Knowledge Skills to gain an advantage might not constitute metagaming in everyone's book.

And on the other point, the information in the DMG about metagaming is not a rule. It is fluff. If it were a rule, it would be in the SRD, and it is not.

To me, it's easier just to go with the common-sense approach. If they're not providing you with an actual game mechanic, it's a rule. If they're providing you with world-building and roleplaying information, then it's advice. Role-playing is as much art as science, after all.

 

[Felon]

We don't need to.

Sure we do. You do need to know what the actual problems are before you provide actual solutions.

 

[Felon]

OK, I'll edit my posts too. POOF! Done.

Again if you love metagaming then this is not the thread for you.

The player interrupts players when they talk, gives him advice he knows as a player not a character, interupts tactics with his own tactical suggestions, tries to ask me knowledge check s (consistently) to confirm his theory on any adventure seed or plot. Tries to make knowledge checks to gage information that other players worked hard to obtain, ect.

The incident that boiled the scathing emailer off was when the party was trying to open a door and one of them had found out some information. The metaplayer wanted to use the knowledge to open the door, even though he was off researching in another part of the dungeon. when i said no he wanted to roll a knowledge check to see if his player would have figured out what the other player would have. I said no again.

See, as far as I can tell, metagaming is a red herring here, and thus teaching the player not to do it isn't the real solution. The real problem seems to be that the guy is a bit manic and can't settle down so that others have their share of air-time. Even he were to remain in-character constantly, he'd probably still find ways to hog the spotlight.

The DMG II covers this pretty extensively, noting that most odious player habits boil down to one thing: selfishness. Do you have this book? Check it out.

 

[Piratecat]

I used to metagame like crazy. Sagiro largely cured me of that; by almost never using a "straight from the book" monster, even if it was a tiny little change, I quickly learned that metagaming wasn't giving me any advantage. As a result, I largely stopped doing it even when I suspected the monster was "normal." The fact that I was having more fun not metagaming really helped, too.

 

[Storm Raven]

My apologies to everyone. I really am seeking advice on this, I erased my posts towards felon and put in what i consider metagaming. I'll repost that info in this thread.
1. He talks during others initiative OOC and overtalks them

This may be rude, but it isn't metagaming. From the rules: "In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."

2. He wants to use knowledge skills to assure theories of his, not for actual knowledge rules. For instance whenever another charachter figures out something or puts two and two together, he, without fail, asks for a roll to see if his charachter figures it out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual knowledge rules". Are you saying that a character cannot use his knowledge skills to confirm a theory in the area covered by the Knowledge skill? I don't even understand what it is you say you are objecting to here.

3. He uses his player knowledge and OOC comments to the other players about how to defeat certain encounters

Sometimes this is metagaming, and sometimes not. I am always befuddled that many Dms seem to think that the inhabitants of a game-world would be at a loss to understand many of the reasonably ordinary threats that exist in their world. Is it metagaming to know that trolls oare susceptible to fire in a world where trolls are an actual threat? Especially if you spend time going out and getting into trouble on a regular basis? Even for an inexperienced adventurer, lots of the weaknesses of particular opponents would be fairly common knowledge, just as a result of living in a world where they exist.

So, my position is - the weaknesses of common, or even uncommon monsters is not a secret. The weaknesses of rare or exotic ones might be.

4. Asks questions OOC about the plot, encounters, creatures, ect during game.

It is metagaming to ask questions? Unless we know what sort of questions you are talking about, I don't klnow what advice I can give. My players ask questions all the time, and it isn't metagaming. Things like "Hey, is this the same innkeeper that told us about the Ebon Eye?" don't seem to me like metagaming - the characters will have a better chance remembering the guy since they actually saw him, as opposed to the players who have only a description to work with, and often have weeks in between meetings that in-game, occur only days apart..

 

[Nebulous]

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Knowledge skills can be a tricky thing, kinda like 'search', that is easy to abuse and annoy the DM. Usually it's not the meta-gaming that I find annoying; it's the attempt to use Knowledge skills as an excuse to not have to figure anything out on their own.

It can be hard to draw the line. Often, players will only ask to make certain checks when 'meta-game' aspects indicate that something is up. OTOH, having them make a constant series of meaningless rolls just to disguise the one time it matters gets kinda tiresome too, from a DM's standpoint as well as the players.

For example, I once had the players in a grand banquet. As they were circulating among the guests, they sensed that one NPC in particular was more important than the rest (by virtue of the fact that I had more info at the ready for that one guy than the others). One of the players asked to make a K:Nobility check to see if he knew anything about the person's history. He rolled really well, I revealed that the guy was an imposter, etc. Now there had been nothing in the party's interactions up to that point that would have made them look at him more closely; it was clearly a case of metagaming by 'reading' the DM, but OTOH, having them make 50 rolls for every person in the room wouldn't be much fun, either.

IME, it's not the metagaming that I find bothersome (although I'll smack someone down if its too egregious). Its the attempt to use that to influence others' actions that gets my goat, because invariably the player that does it (the metagaming) is consciously or not trying to seize the spotlight and be the center of attention disproportionally.

 

[Sejs]

He says he just can't help it and it appears to be a compulsion.

Well, for starters - admission is not an excuse.

~ Stop doing that!
- I can't, I'm weak.
~ Oh, okay, continue doing it then.

Doesn't fly. If you want to encourage him to get over his compulsion, that's dandy. But him essentially saying 'eh, I don't wanna not metagame' isn't so hot an answer, frankly.

Could you recommend any tips, books experiences you had.

For starters, as already mentioned, institute an in-character speech policy.

Be prepared to give the guy a reminder when he's metagaming. "Bill, you're doing it again."

This requires some mental flexibility, but when he starts metagaming (oh, ghouls? despite the fact that I know nothing about them and have no knowledge: religon, ghouls do X, Y, and Z...) change things on 'em. Oh, guess what smart guy, those arn't ghouls after all, they're another kind of cadaverous undead that you've never encountered before. One of the best things I can suggest to this end is to take normal creatures and change their appearance or type.

Every metagamer worth his salt knows the mauve skinned squid-head is an illithid. Mind blast, brain eating, the whole bit.

But what if illithids instead looked like the Strangers from Dark City? No squid head, just a collection of pale people in dark clothing that stare a lot. The brain eating tentacles? Those don't come streaming out of their nose and mouth until the moment they try to latch them on to you to feed.

That sort of thing.