Can you teleport onto a ship?

[Shard O'Glase]

edit away nasty comments

 

[General Starlight]

Pesonal ad hoc attacks. The measure of En World?

NOTE: (This post replies to a post which has since been edited away).

I'm honestly sorry anyone got the impression I was saying I thought I was smarter than they were. I don't think that. Nor was I ever saying anyone here was a simpleton. If you wish to misrepresent what I have said, fine, maybe that's just the sort of person you are. Your POV may even depend on bearing such false witness for all I know, but I didn't say that or anything like that, nor do I think it.

I wonder why you somehow translate one possible suggestion to the proposed question about teleportation into such feelings that you were uneducated or unintelligent. I certainly didn't say that, nor do I think it of those who prefer a different approach to gaming. Yet you feel that way? Why? Condescending? I think I'd only be condescending if I felt I had to talk more simplistically for the benefit of those here. That would be really condescending then. Instead, I'm treating everyone here as equals, fully capable of understanding what I'm saying and even following my reasoning, if they wish to read it. Condescending? Get real. And I wasn't the one who started suggesting anyone else's method or approach to gaming was wrong. I said they (some of them, anyway) were less realistic and given to greater inconsistencies. Seems to me they even admit as much themselves. Less realism isn't wrong if that's OK with you and what you want. The point is to have fun, first and foremost. If you enjoy your game, fine. If your co-players enjoy it with you, better. No matter what anyone else thinks, you are doing it correctly if you are all having fun.

Telling lies by now saying I actually think everyone should look for better reasons to make their games more 'worthwhile' just isn't going to cut it, either. About the most juvenile thing I've seen here are these personal attacks in an open forum more or less designed to share all sorts of differing points of view. Shard O'Glase, did you even read my posts? Here here, kreynolds? Please. Until hong went off on some WANGER tangent, even his 3rd law wasn't out of line. I don't agree with it or with its underlying philosophy, but that doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong.

You want to say something about my ideas on teleporting, fine, you want to explain to people how you prefer less realism in your games, good, you want to make it clear you honestly find things concerning fantasy and fiction and gaming more enjoyable when you don't think about them too much, great. That's your call. I, for one, won't, and haven't told anyone they are wrong to do this, I didn't say or imply they were uneducated if they liked that approach, or some sort of simpleton if that's their preferred style, or in any other way remiss as roleplayers should they fail to more closely adhere to certain ideals I happen to value. Alas, I can't help what you may infer, but maybe you should check your own character for why you came to such conclusions given what I did say, which thankfully you can reread. So if you want to attack my personal character or insult me, call me names, or go on at length about how my approach to gaming is intrinsically wrong, doesn't belong in fantasy, or some other bit of crap, then I think you're the ones who needs to grow up.

Now I want to make it clear most people contributing in this thread haven't really crossed the line for an open forum, IMHO, but some have. If all those people want is one narrow POV to think about, and in fact one that more or less already agrees with their own so they don't have to think about anything new, why are they in an open forum in the first place? I say stow the insults, share your ideas without fear of personal attacks, or En World forums will become nothing more than a place to agree with what's already being said. And what good is that?

Jim.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Since that wasn't your intent I fully apologize, and will edit my comments away. I very well may have over reacted, but comments like those wanting deeper thought, and those with x and y education might be driven insane by the simplistic nature of certain campaigns seemed condescending to me given the entire package of your comments.

edit for sp

 

[General Starlight]

IIRC, I wasn't the one who first suggested one's sanity was in any danger here. Thank you, BTW. It is nice, even refreshing, to find those mature enough to admit when they may have made a mistake, particularly on the internet where it somehow seems to be greater license to be rude since you will never meet.

Jim

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Yeah again sorry, unfortuantely things like tone of voice don't come across on the internet as well as in person, which sometimes compounds that rudeness problem here.(especially with people like me who jump to conclusions way to fast sometimes)

 

[General Starlight]

All too true. I've seen the same problem in email correspondences, like PBEM games, for example. And those little emotion con hardly cut it. At least in En World they are better depicted and easier to see. Still, my personal choice of "cool" may not really be giving the right impression for all I know.

I find this forum's ability to edit posts after the fact rather unique. I would think it could even be abused after a fashion, but at least such edits are clearly dated. Yet, like emotion cons, it is overly easy to skip over dates and get a totally wrong impression if one wanted to really mess up a forum's running thread. I best not go into too great detail of what I mean least I encourage that sort of thing.

But why, can anyone tell me, does this thing not send me email notifications like I think I asked for? And why is the search function disabled? That's really too handy not to have in a place as big as this. Best guess is, it's just too darn big to index anymore with great enough speed. Sigh. Makes finding things of personal interest too hard. Oh well

Starlight begins casting a spell, his words blurring together as their speed increases, creating a resonance within the very fabric of time and space, greatly increasing the probability he is elsewhere until eventually, he is

 

[IceBear]

General Starlight, I told you already why I feel the way I do about this. My life is already filled with enough complexities that I don't want my HOBBY to be one of them. As I stated before I used to have a binder FULL of house rules and clarifications to try and realistically cover everything that I could. In the end, it made the game so much work it wasn't fun. That's all.

Basically I try to take the designers' intents and not over analyze the rules - that's what I meant by using the KISS principle. It's not that I CAN'T analyze the various rules to the nth degree to prepare for all possible situations (like teleporting onto a moving ship), it's just that I no longer WANT to. If some situation comes up that isn't 100% described by the rules I try to draw upon past experience, my players' thoughts on the ruling, and the designer intent and just go with it, without thinking about it too much.

Since I've seen examples in novels and in adventures where people have teleported to a moving ship (and I had it happen in an old D&D 2nd game with these same players), so I would probably allow it. If a DM doesn't allow it, I don't think that's wrong either. We just have to be consistent with the rulings. The more I think about it, if we are talking about an ongoing seafaring campaign and the wizard is teleporting to his own personal cabin (which is basically his home) I'd probably allow his magic to bring him to such a intimately well known place. But, if the PCs had paid of passage on a ship and then wanted to teleport back to it, I'd probably go with the scrying requirement first as was offered.

Anyway, when I perked up to defend Hong's Third Law it was in response to your incredibly long and detailed posting (perhaps the longest I have seen on this forum). Basically, I was under the impression that you were looking at the rule so closely that you were missing out on the big picture of the game. But, as I often have to remind myself, some people like to play that way - just because I no longer like doing things that way doesn't mean that others aren't entitled to it.

IceBear

 

[General Starlight]

My Dear IceBear,

I think you are still barking up the wrong tree if you feel I somehow think you ought to be doing other than you are doing. I can't make it plainer than that. Fun. Strive for fun. Do what's fun for YOU. So while I am a bit perplexed you can think what I have said concerning teleporting is stressful or hard to think about, that's not my call to tell you what should and shouldn't stress you out. But I'm not doing that, am I?

As for my personal decision, the one you asked me to alter as a matter of trust, it won't drive me crazy, I assure you. Not only is this level of thought fun for ME, if anything, it's a fun part of MY hobby and relieves stress instead of adding to it. It would certainly be different if I started performing the actual mathematical calculations for such, but I won't go anywhere near that sleeping beast as that would be like work (to ME).

Sorry, then, if you somehow got the wrong impression. I seem to be giving off more than a few here.

Jim.

p.s. I don't think it's always so easy to grok the designer's 'intent' unless you are in actual communication with them. Failing that, any interpretation you lend to the written word will more likely reflect you own desires and preconceived notions of game balance, fairness, fun, playability, or what have you. Now maybe you actually correspond regularly with said designers. I never do. But unless you do, I would be less inclined to claim any special insight into the designer's intent as a basis of your rulings. In fact, I'm often of a mind their primary intent was to make a product, sell it, and make a huge profit, and I'm not about to base a ruling on something like that.

 

[kreynolds]

p.s. I don't think it's always so easy to grok the designer's 'intent' unless you are in actual communication with them. Failing that, any interpretation you lend to the written word will more likely reflect you own desires and preconceived notions of game balance, fairness, fun, playability, or what have you. Now maybe you actually correspond regularly with said designers. I never do. But unless you do, I would be less inclined to claim any special insight into the designer's intent as a basis of your rulings. In fact, I'm often of a mind their primary intent was to make a product, sell it, and make a huge profit, and I'm not about to base a ruling on something like that.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example of what makes an individual so intolerable. The tone of a man who believes he is God. But guess what? This little post of mine here will no doubt elicit a very intelligent and highly sophisticated response from our fellow deity. Yep, I am positively convinced that I'm not interested in a single word of what this man has to say so far. Mostly 'cause he reminds me way too much of me.

 

[IceBear]

My Dear IceBear,

I think you are still barking up the wrong tree if you feel I somehow think you ought to be doing other than you are doing. I can't make it plainer than that. Fun. Strive for fun. Do what's fun for YOU. So while I am a bit perplexed you can think what I have said concerning teleporting is stressful or hard to think about, that's not my call to tell you what should and shouldn't stress you out. But I'm not doing that, am I?

As for my personal decision, the one you asked me to alter as a matter of trust, it won't drive me crazy, I assure you. Not only is this level of thought fun for ME, if anything, it's a fun part of MY hobby and relieves stress instead of adding to it. It would certainly be different if I started performing the actual mathematical calculations for such, but I won't go anywhere that sleeping beast as that would be like work (to ME).

Sorry, then, if you somehow got the wrong impression. I seem to be giving off more than a few here.

Jim.

p.s. I don't think it's always so easy to grok the designer's 'intent' unless you are in actual communication with them. Failing that, any interpretation you lend to the written word will more likely reflect you own desires and preconceived notions of game balance, fairness, fun, playability, or what have you. Now maybe you actually correspond regularly with said designers. I never do. But unless you do, I would be less inclined to claim any special insight into the designer's intent as a basis of your rulings. In fact, I'm often of a mind their primary intent was to make a product, sell it, and make a huge profit, and I'm not about to base a ruling on something like that.

Hmmmm - I guess I'm giving you the wrong impression too. What you are saying, in the specific case of teleport, isn't stressful or driving me insane. I just have a general policy of not reading too much into ANY rule, because I have found DEVELOPING and MAINTAINING all of these extra clarifications and houserules a waste of my precious time. Would I rather be analyzing the impact of allowing teleport to work on a moving ship or would I rather be working on the plot of my campaign and next week's adventure? I live a very full life and I simply don't have the time to analyze things like you anymore - to make that time is what I would consider stressful and beyond my current needs.

Again, as long as you are having fun that's the main thing. I guess the main reason some people got up in arms was because they simply stated that they didn't want to bring modern physics into their game and because "it's magic" is sufficient reason for them. You seemed (I could have misread that) to have slighted them (Hong especially) for having that attitude, when, as you stated above, all that matters is that they are having fun.

Yes, maybe they shouldn't have attacked you for your lenghty and well-thoughtout post. What you have to understand is that there have been many, many, many, many different arguments on these boards were people have basically read more into the rule than was intended and it has caused more trouble than it should have. I'm not talking about teleport here or with modern physics, but with simple English and the word choices used by the writers (Can a monk use a shield without suffering the penalties of armor is one that comes to mind, although in all fairness that one is more ambiguous than some of the others).

As to designer's intent, I often ask Monte, Skip and others what they meant and use that. Also, as I said before, if it's something that I haven't heard from a designer about, I will usually go with my gut instinct which is based on my players' feedback, my understanding of the rule, and how things used to work in past editions.

Anyway, I'm dropping this.

IceBear