Cap Skills for d20

[Aus_Snow]

Whenever I come across mechanics that appeal to me, wherever I happen to find them, thoughts sometimes cross my mind of welding, splicing, crossbreeding, and related wholesome hobbies.

In Artesia (a very pretty, and pretty rules-hefty Fuzion-based fantasy RPG) there exists a game mechanic called 'Cap Skills'. The first example given is that of <Riding plus [any skill used while riding]> - in this instance, the character's skill level in Riding sets the limit, or cap, for the other skill in the equation. So, if you attempt to make a melee attack (which is covered by skills like any others in that system) or for that matter a speech, while hoofing it, that weapon skill or Oratory (or the like) cannot be used at a higher level than your Riding skill level. Another example given is that of trying to loosen bonds, without being noticed: in this instance, Stealth acts as the Cap Skill for Escape Artist (or its equivalent).

To me, this just seems amazingly elegant - it cuts out the need for many modifiers you might otherwise have to remember/calculate and impose, and it *makes sense*. Well, to specify again, to me it does.

Anyone else interested in seeing how this could work for d20/OGL systems, like 3e, Pathfinder, M&M or any other? For example, what existing skill system features could be excised due to redundancy, and are there any things one might need to be watching out for?

If there's no interest around here at all, that's fine. I'll go off and tinker either way, as ever. But anyway, just thought I'd see if I could get some fellow ENWorlders' insights, before doing that.

 

[Kerrick]

That sounds interesting, and you're right - it does make sense. I'm not sure how to go about doing it, or post any ideas - my brain's currently running processing power on an unrelated rule issue - but I'd be interested to see what you can do with it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Aus_Snow,

It seems like what you are talking about here is comboing the skills limiting it to the modifier of the lesser skill. For example, Let's say a door to a bedroom is locked with the occupant of the room sleeping. The character in question wishes to unlock the door quietly - or if you like quietly unlock the door. Now let's say the character's open lock is +12 but their move silently is +8. Let's say the DC on the lock is 20, but the DC of the move silently is opposed by the sleeping occupant.

Now what you could do is a check for each. However, the aim of the capping is to turn two checks into one. As such, you could roll the listen of the sleeping occupant to give a DC of 13 (not re-rolling it but keeping it as a static DC for the "encounter"). With the capping system, the character would be limited by their move silently more so than their open lock so they use the +8 for the combo check. Now if the PC rolls a 12 or better, they have opened the door without the sleeper noticing. If the PC rolls between 6 and 11, they have not opened the door but they also have not woken the sleeper. If the PC rolls a 5 or less, then they have both failed to open the door and woken the sleeper.

Problem 1: There is no possiblility of opening the door but also waking the occupant. This could be interpreted in the absolute determination of not making a noise as you try to trick the lock.

Problem 2: I've made up the modifiers and DCs to produce a pretty optimal scenario. In the reality of disparate modifiers, you might end up with some pretty whacky scenarios if one modifier was significantly greater than the other. Perhaps the use of generous circumstance bonuses to up the lower modifier could alleviate this?

Anyway, just some thoughts to help push the discussion along. I think the mechanic shows promise.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[slwoyach]

That's an interesting thought but I would go a step further. You could have a small number of broad skills, and then specialty skills within them. When using a specialty skill you could use either your specialty skill modifier or 1/2 your broad skill. So if you have 5 ranks in the handle animal broad skill and a 16 charisma and 14 dexterity you would have a +4 modifier to any specialty skill within the handle animal broad skill. So a character with no ranks in ride would be able to make a ride check at +4. Or he could put up to 5 ranks in ride (equal to his ranks in handle animal) and make a ride check at +7.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure its "realistic." At least, not any more realistic than the system already is (or isn't).

After all, who can REALLY say which man would make the better shot from horseback- an Olympic-level rider who is a crappy shot, or an Olympic-level sharpshooter who is a lousy rider?

The former can control the horse with the slightest pressure from his knees, but if can't hit a bullseye from 30 feet without extreme luck from a stable platform, how will being on horseback improve his aim?

The latter might have trouble getting the horse to obey him- and may even have difficulty remaining in the saddle...but may be able to compensate with his extreme accuracy.

(I'm not decided either way; I'm just saying.)

IOW, yes its different, and it makes certain assumptions that the default 3.X system doesn't. But is it better? YMMV.

 

[slwoyach]

After all, who can REALLY say which man would make the better shot from horseback- an Olympic-level rider who is a crappy shot, or an Olympic-level sharpshooter who is a lousy rider?

I don't know who'd win, but I'd love to watch. On television from the safety of my own home of course.

 

[Nellisir]

After all, who can REALLY say which man would make the better shot from horseback- an Olympic-level rider who is a crappy shot, or an Olympic-level sharpshooter who is a lousy rider?

I'd bet on the sharpshooter, personally. He only needs a moment. The rider needs to get lucky.

But that's not really on topic.

I like the broad/narrow skills idea, actually, and might implement that. You can sink skill points into abilities (Str, Dex, Con, etc), or the traditional skills. I'd probably cap the bonus for ability scores lower than level+3 (maybe just level), and subskills could operate at a default of 1/2 that, or 1/2 + whatever you sink into each subskill.

 

[Aus_Snow]

how will being on horseback improve his aim?

Well, it doesn't, if you're using cap skills (e.g., Ride in this instance). The guy with no skills relevant to shooting will be just as terrible a shot as ever.

Unless, right now, I'm misreading your post, I'm pretty sure you were misreading mine. That, or I wasn't entirely clear about how this stuff works. Which is certainly plausible.

Another thought about this: I suppose, if you were using say, Stealth and Picklock simultaneously (the former being the cap skill), then perhaps if the Picklock check failed by enough that Stealth also would have failed, they both (at the same time) fail, whereas if it's only enough for the Picklock to fail, well, the lock is picked successfully, but not quietly.

How does that sound?

 

[TheWyrd]

Well, it boils down to "Use the lowest of all skills that apply to the check."

That said, in the example of the good horseman/bad shot vs. the bad horseman/good shot, assuming a +5 bad skill bonus and a +10 good skill bonus, the shot in both cases will be made at +5. It does sound like people are arguing that this shouldn't be the case. For whatever reason the good shot/bad horsemen should be shooting at +8 and the bad shot/good horsemen should be shooting at +5.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Unless, right now, I'm misreading your post

I think you are. My point was that the cap skills system may be somewhat less realistic than an aggregation of modifiers model for skills. The line about "improvement" was just me being snarky.

I'm not arguing pro or con, but I suspect that in a competition, the RW good marksman/bad horseman will usually outshoot the good horseman/bad marksman- which would not be reflected in a cap skills system.